Chants for religious freedom: Interreligious prayer gathering in Arlington, VA
#1
...and the scandal continues...

http://angelqueen.org/2013/07/11/chants-...e-purpose/


No one must either pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: Let him be excommunicated. Council of Carthage

If any clergyman or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meetings of heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of Communion. III Council of Constantinople

Is it permitted for Catholics to be present at, or take part in, conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement all who in any way lay claim to the name of Christian? In the negative! It is clear, therefore, why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics. There is only one way in which the unity of Christians may be fostered, and that is by furthering the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from her. Pope Pius XI

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 2), Jan. 6, 1928: “For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule.  Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little, turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.”

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#2
(07-11-2013, 07:29 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: ...and the scandal continues...

http://angelqueen.org/2013/07/11/chants-...e-purpose/


No one must either pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: Let him be excommunicated. Council of Carthage

If any clergyman or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meetings of heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of Communion. III Council of Constantinople

Is it permitted for Catholics to be present at, or take part in, conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement all who in any way lay claim to the name of Christian? In the negative! It is clear, therefore, why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics. There is only one way in which the unity of Christians may be fostered, and that is by furthering the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from her. Pope Pius XI

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 2), Jan. 6, 1928: “For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule.  Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little, turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.”

::Sigh::
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#3
Quote:It was not an evening of praying together, said Father Rooney, but gathering to pray in one another’s presence.

Huh?

I've missed the Arlington Diocese since moving here to Vietnam last year, but I remember this kind of stuff going on. There are good, faithful Catholics still there but they are being overpowered by the left-leaning demographics of the area.
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#4
(07-11-2013, 07:29 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: No one must either pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: Let him be excommunicated. Council of Carthage

If any clergyman or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meetings of heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of Communion. III Council of Constantinople

I've looked up these two oft-mentioned quotes before, and as far as I can tell, they are not present in any of the actual writings of either council. I'm certainly open to any authoritative citation that someone else has managed to find. Regardless, this event is certainly a terrible scandal.
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#5
(07-11-2013, 10:38 PM)Joshua Wrote:
(07-11-2013, 07:29 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: No one must either pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: Let him be excommunicated. Council of Carthage

If any clergyman or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meetings of heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of Communion. III Council of Constantinople

I've looked up these two oft-mentioned quotes before, and as far as I can tell, they are not present in any of the actual writings of either council. I'm certainly open to any authoritative citation that someone else has managed to find. Regardless, this event is certainly a terrible scandal.

Canon 64

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3820.htm

Canon 33 & 34 (and others)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm


These are not from the cited councils I posted. You'll have to read through them (they are lengthy!) on New Advent. But they are there.
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#6
St. Pius of Trent,

Not sure of all the details of this event, but it could present the problem of "scandal from appearances" as defined by St. Thomas, if any present were led to embrace religious indifferentism (not sure if this happened).  I think you should develop that argument more rather than go the way you did.

The citations you supply don't really address an event like this.  The older canons did, but they have not been in force in centuries, otherwise, things like the joint prayer of the Confraternity of Compassion would not have been approved by Leo XIII, or the joint prayer at meetings for cooperation toward common goals would not have been approved by the Holy Office under Pius XII. 

The main problem other than the potential for scandal is common prayer with non-Christians, which even Cardinal Kasper says is not possible "Christians and the followers of other religions can pray, but cannot pray together. Every form of syncretism is to be excluded. " 

The priest quoted by damooster said what he said for this reason. They were praying in the same place, but not corporately, according to him.  Praying in the same place for the same end, but not "praying together" happens often outside aborion clinics where I live.  Doing it in a church or in such an organized way where it appears there is prayer together is what could possibly be scandalous (again, presuming someone was led to sin by seeing it).

Ostensibly, that is what is happening here--different people praying for freedom from a common oppressor.  There's nothing wrong with working for such a freedom as a concrete good when circumstances do not allow a juridical arragnement more closely approachin the ideal, as Leo XIII taught in both  Libertas and Immortale Dei, and which has been affirmed by the Church as the way to achieve the greatest good, given current circumstances.

The Mortalium Animos citation deals with pan-Christian societies whose purpose is to establish a false union based on the lowest common denominator, as the part right before what you bolded states.  This gathering was not such a society and therefore the citation does not really apply.
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#7
(07-12-2013, 03:38 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote:
(07-11-2013, 10:38 PM)Joshua Wrote:
(07-11-2013, 07:29 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: No one must either pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: Let him be excommunicated. Council of Carthage

If any clergyman or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meetings of heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of Communion. III Council of Constantinople

I've looked up these two oft-mentioned quotes before, and as far as I can tell, they are not present in any of the actual writings of either council. I'm certainly open to any authoritative citation that someone else has managed to find. Regardless, this event is certainly a terrible scandal.

Canon 64

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3820.htm

Canon 33 & 34 (and others)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm


These are not from the cited councils I posted. You'll have to read through them (they are lengthy!) on New Advent. But they are there.

I'm aware of the citation from Laodicea, but the so-called "Apostolic Canons" are apocryphal as far as I'm aware and not an authority on any issue. I'm curious as to why these quotes are continually attributed to the wrong councils. It's fairly dishonest.
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#8
(07-12-2013, 05:55 PM)Joshua Wrote:
(07-12-2013, 03:38 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote:
(07-11-2013, 10:38 PM)Joshua Wrote:
(07-11-2013, 07:29 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: No one must either pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: Let him be excommunicated. Council of Carthage

If any clergyman or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meetings of heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of Communion. III Council of Constantinople

I've looked up these two oft-mentioned quotes before, and as far as I can tell, they are not present in any of the actual writings of either council. I'm certainly open to any authoritative citation that someone else has managed to find. Regardless, this event is certainly a terrible scandal.

Canon 64

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3820.htm

Canon 33 & 34 (and others)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm


These are not from the cited councils I posted. You'll have to read through them (they are lengthy!) on New Advent. But they are there.

I'm aware of the citation from Laodicea, but the so-called "Apostolic Canons" are apocryphal as far as I'm aware and not an authority on any issue. I'm curious as to why these quotes are continually attributed to the wrong councils. It's fairly dishonest.

I clearly stated you have search through both council documents. There is nothing I did that was dishonest and I don't appreciate the insinuation.
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#9
Would anyone on this thread go into a place of worship if the pope asked you to, Catholic or otherwise, and pray for a common goal aside from the non Catholics conversion?
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#10
(07-12-2013, 05:55 PM)Joshua Wrote:
(07-12-2013, 03:38 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote:
(07-11-2013, 10:38 PM)Joshua Wrote:
(07-11-2013, 07:29 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: No one must either pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: Let him be excommunicated. Council of Carthage

If any clergyman or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meetings of heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of Communion. III Council of Constantinople

I've looked up these two oft-mentioned quotes before, and as far as I can tell, they are not present in any of the actual writings of either council. I'm certainly open to any authoritative citation that someone else has managed to find. Regardless, this event is certainly a terrible scandal.

Canon 64

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3820.htm

Canon 33 & 34 (and others)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm


These are not from the cited councils I posted. You'll have to read through them (they are lengthy!) on New Advent. But they are there.

I'm aware of the citation from Laodicea, but the so-called "Apostolic Canons" are apocryphal as far as I'm aware and not an authority on any issue. I'm curious as to why these quotes are continually attributed to the wrong councils. It's fairly dishonest.

Here's a (extremely questionable but interesting) list of similar citations http://www.johnthebaptist.us/jbw_english...retics.pdf

The reason this particular list should probably just be ignored is that it is put together by (and on the website of) "RJMI",  Richard Joseph Michael Ibranyi, who thinks (St.) Vincent Ferrer, (St.) Thomas More, and (get ready) (St.) Thomas Aquinas (etc) are HERETICS. (No kidding)

I wish there was easier access to Church documents beyond what is in Denzinger's. Somehow google isn't enough.

(St. Pius of Trent, I don't think Joshua meant that YOU were dishonest! You didn't make up the citation; it's just that possibly someone else was dishonest in the history of the citation on the internet.  But maybe it was an innocent mistake.  And (as far as I know!) maybe the citation is perfectly legitimate! )
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