Can Catholics even preach anymore?
#21
(08-02-2014, 03:35 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: My own journey towards Orthodoxy has not been hasty or simply a knee jerk reaction to the latest buffoonery of Cardinal Dolan or Pope Francis, its been a long tortuous path of prayer, doubts, reading, reflecting, mulling it over with others and being in a state of mental agony. I'm very much aware of the various issues in the Orthodox Church be the calender, the creeping protestantism and modernism in some circles, the renovationist smugness of parisian orthodox scholars (who have a HUGE influence on Orthodoxy in the West), the ethnic and nationalist ghetto mentality and the various bizarre and petty squabbles over how to receive converts even within the same jurisdiction and yet this does not phase me in the same way as the near complete and total about face of the Roman Catholic Church in the last  half century.

Sounds like me, FB.

Quote:Reading the Optina Elders books again, and Father Seraphim Rose, are heartwarming and encouraging. Not to mention lately I've been praying as much of the Eastern Office as I'm able without all the service books. I missed that full body prayer, the metanias, the frequent crossing, the bows,

I bought an Orthodox prayer book last December, and I was so impressed by the frequent bowing and bows to the ground. It really is a spiritual benefit. I am beginning to think that the problems in Catholicism are owed partly to the one bishop being so isolated from the others. Think how much harder it would have been to wreck the liturgy if the bishops had more of an equal footing.
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#22
Popes have been known to lay with whores and sire bastard children.  Once upon a time the entire world groaned as it awoke and found itself to be Arian.  We cannot confuse the truths and reality of revealed religion, and the myriad of individual men and women that fail to live up to it.  I am extremely disturbed by Pope Francis' recent escapades with the Pentecostals and Evangelicals.  But all it has demonstrated is that he has no zeal for the conversion of souls.  All we've really seen at the end of the day, is that he's got some serious flaws.  He has also done a great deal of good.  His remarks on the economy, upon helping the poor, and on the need for curial reform, etc., have been spectaular and are spot on the mark.  Then he washes women's feet on Holy Thursday and grovels at the feet of Pentecostal heretics.  But even Saint Peter denied Our Lord three times.  You may wish to dismiss this, but this is not a mere platitude, it contains a deep truth here.  Saint Peter, the first pope, who had been given the singular grace of confessing the divinity of Jesus Christ and winning for himself the keys to the kingdom of heaven, denied Our Lord three times.  He was hardly a shinning example at that moment in time!

Calm down, everyone.  God's got this.  Look, he's not taught anything heretical.  He may certainly believe erroneous things, I suspect he does, but there's nothing explicit there.  So there's no need to freak out.  If is a heretic there's still no reason to freak out.  It's not actually taught by the Magisterium that a heretic cannot be Pope, it's all reliant upon theological opinion and speculation.  I certainly wouldn't want to risk my immortal soul on a theologian's speculation.  If he's not a heretic, but continues as he is, then you just need to shrug and realise that the current Pontiff is making a dog's arse of it all.  He's a crappy pope.  Pray for him and move on, and work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.

Would you really abandon Christ's Church because the pope decided not to wear a pair of red shoes?  And I don't mean to be dismissive of anyone, but pause and consider for a while.  That is essentially what it comes down to.  Doctrine: Mass is a Sacrifice.  The Novus Ordo is still a sacrifice, it's still the Mass, even though the liturgy is banal monstrosity in form and ritual.  But it's still the liturgy.  You cannot be attached to forms and traditions.  The days of the papal court being the court of an Italian aristocrat are gone.  Of course we must ever fight for solemnity in the liturgy, of course we must always strive to enshrine the doctrinal orthodoxy of the Roman Canon in its once premier place, etc., and of course we must demand of our pastors truth in doctrine and guidance in holiness.  But there's no need to freak out when Father Bob denies the doctrine of no salvation outside of the Church, there's no need to freak out when Bishop Jim washes a woman's feet on Holy Thursday.  And there's no need to freak out when the Supreme Pontiff is not fulfilling his vocation as the pope.

You do what Canon Law tells you to do.

Quote:All the Christian faithful must direct their efforts to lead a holy life and to promote the growth of the Church and its continual sanctification, according to their own condition.

Work on your own salvation, help the Church no matter what frustrations are thrown in your way, and trust in God.

In Jesus and Mary,
Prie dieu!
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#23
How can you preach when ecumenism waters everything down.
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#24
(08-02-2014, 03:58 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote:
(08-02-2014, 03:35 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: My own journey towards Orthodoxy has not been hasty or simply a knee jerk reaction to the latest buffoonery of Cardinal Dolan or Pope Francis, its been a long tortuous path of prayer, doubts, reading, reflecting, mulling it over with others and being in a state of mental agony. I'm very much aware of the various issues in the Orthodox Church be the calender, the creeping protestantism and modernism in some circles, the renovationist smugness of parisian orthodox scholars (who have a HUGE influence on Orthodoxy in the West), the ethnic and nationalist ghetto mentality and the various bizarre and petty squabbles over how to receive converts even within the same jurisdiction and yet this does not phase me in the same way as the near complete and total about face of the Roman Catholic Church in the last  half century.


What do you think of Jesus Christ?

Not sure what you mean. I deeply believe in Jesus Christ and pray to Him and converse with Him as often as I'm able. My prayer life has never wavered in the midst of my East/West agony.  Nothing has changed except my doubts about the claims of the Roman Catholic Church,doubts I've had for ages. 
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#25
Well, then, why not focus on Him instead of this stupid drama?  Seriously.  Enough already.
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#26
(08-02-2014, 04:22 PM)salus Wrote: How can you preach when ecumenism waters everything down.

How can you preach when you're locked up in a cell?  There will be a thousand frustrations thrown in your way as you work for the glory of God.  There will be a thousand contradictions.  But we are called to be a sign of contradiction because we are called to be, all of us, alter Christus.  Other Christs!  That is what baptism has transformed us into, it transforms us into Christ!  And we are to share in the mission of Christ.  The salvation and sanctifications of souls!

Of course the world hates this, the flesh hates this, the devil hates this.  And the world, the flesh and the devil will not cease in their attempts to overthrow us in our attempts to realise our divine mission of participation in the life of Christ.  You pray, you entrust yourself to the maternal solicitude of Mary, and you get on with it.  God forbid! that the Supreme Pontiff allies himself with those three enemies of the Christian mentioned above.  He can do untold damage.  But all things work to the good of those that love God, and our God is a God of providence, and goodness.  His providence, which operates according to His wisdom and His goodness, will see to it that everything is okay.

If your next door neighbour is a professing Catholic, but is a terribly immoral person, or if they believe in errors and heresies, and if they continually interefere with the parish and obstruct the glory of God... what does that mean?  Do you then leave the Church, do you abandon yourself to despair?  Has the Church fallen because of that man's sins and imperfections?  No!  And the same applies to our popes, bishops and priests.

In Jesus and Mary,
Prie dieu!
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#27
(08-02-2014, 04:08 PM)Prie dieu Wrote: Popes have been known to lay with whores and sire bastard children. [...] He's a crappy pope.  Pray for him and move on, and work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.

This is not about Francis. I never mentioned Francis in the genesis of this topic. It's about the whole Magisterium, the Council, and the last 50-100 years. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I don't care about Francis' opinions - but I do care very much about the Church's teachings.

Quote:Would you really abandon Christ's Church because the pope decided not to wear a pair of red shoes?  And I don't mean to be dismissive of anyone, but pause and consider for a while.  That is essentially what it comes down to.  Doctrine: Mass is a Sacrifice.  The Novus Ordo is still a sacrifice, it's still the Mass, even though the liturgy is banal monstrosity in form and ritual.  But it's still the liturgy.  You cannot be attached to forms and traditions.  The days of the papal court being the court of an Italian aristocrat are gone.  Of course we must ever fight for solemnity in the liturgy, of course we must always strive to enshrine the doctrinal orthodoxy of the Roman Canon in its once premier place, etc., and of course we must demand of our pastors truth in doctrine and guidance in holiness.  But there's no need to freak out when Father Bob denies the doctrine of no salvation outside of the Church, there's no need to freak out when Bishop Jim washes a woman's feet on Holy Thursday.  And there's no need to freak out when the Supreme Pontiff is not fulfilling his vocation as the pope.

Are you serious? Is this mockery? No-one mentioned red shoes or any trappings of the papal office or the way liturgies are celebrated. Again, this was not about any pope or popes or the Mass. I am concerned with the very mindset and texts of the last ecumenical Council, and of the whole college of bishops in the world. Has it really become a relativist playground? A modernist stronghold? Are we just extant for charity, social justice, tolerance, and equality? That's the way it's playing out, in my opinion. That is why I hate going to Mass these days. That is why I am afraid of asking anyone to become Catholic.

Quote:You do what Canon Law tells you to do.
All the Christian faithful must direct their efforts to lead a holy life and to promote the growth of the Church and its continual sanctification, according to their own condition.

The fact is that I don't want to promote the growth of the Novus Ordo Church Mentality, knowing full well that the same Roman Catholic Church which provided holy Martyrs for the truths of the Faith has now provided us with heretical teachings across almost the whole of the Magisterium. The Arian bishops just left the Catholic Church; they never actually managed to change it. The fact that very bad change has come from official Council documents within the Church makes me incredibly depressed. This is way beyond red shoes and Masses.

Quote:Work on your own salvation, help the Church no matter what frustrations are thrown in your way, and trust in God.

Thank you for the encouragement, but... help the Church do what, exactly? Organize more sing-alongs with Muslims? Have joint Seder suppers with Jews? Do nothing about the billions of pagans who know nothing of the love of Christ? Those are the legacy of the Novus Ordo Church, and her silliness.

(08-02-2014, 04:34 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: Well, then, why not focus on Him instead of this stupid drama?  Seriously.  Enough already.

Please try to respect and be merciful to those who have an inner agony. Not everyone has so strong a faith in the Church as you might. What a phlegmatic lawyer perceives as stupid drama might be the throes of real spiritual torment in a melancholic.
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#28
(08-02-2014, 04:44 PM)Heorot Wrote: Please try to respect and be merciful to those who have an inner agony. Not everyone has so strong a faith in the Church as you might. What a phlegmatic lawyer perceives as stupid drama might be the throes of real spiritual torment in a melancholic.

I'm a melancholic/choleric, so believe me, I know stupid drama.

I speak from experience.  Let go of this agony.  It's largely self-inflicted.  You guys are being major drama queens.  You don't have to be preoccupied with these issues.  You are missing your life, including your life in Christ.
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#29
(08-02-2014, 04:44 PM)Heorot Wrote:
(08-02-2014, 04:08 PM)Prie dieu Wrote: Popes have been known to lay with whores and sire bastard children. [...] He's a crappy pope.  Pray for him and move on, and work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.

This is not about Francis. I never mentioned Francis in the genesis of this topic. It's about the whole Magisterium, the Council, and the last 50-100 years. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I don't care about Francis' opinions - but I do care very much about the Church's teachings.

Quote:Would you really abandon Christ's Church because the pope decided not to wear a pair of red shoes?  And I don't mean to be dismissive of anyone, but pause and consider for a while.  That is essentially what it comes down to.  Doctrine: Mass is a Sacrifice.  The Novus Ordo is still a sacrifice, it's still the Mass, even though the liturgy is banal monstrosity in form and ritual.  But it's still the liturgy.  You cannot be attached to forms and traditions.  The days of the papal court being the court of an Italian aristocrat are gone.  Of course we must ever fight for solemnity in the liturgy, of course we must always strive to enshrine the doctrinal orthodoxy of the Roman Canon in its once premier place, etc., and of course we must demand of our pastors truth in doctrine and guidance in holiness.  But there's no need to freak out when Father Bob denies the doctrine of no salvation outside of the Church, there's no need to freak out when Bishop Jim washes a woman's feet on Holy Thursday.  And there's no need to freak out when the Supreme Pontiff is not fulfilling his vocation as the pope.

Are you serious? Is this mockery? No-one mentioned red shoes or any trappings of the papal office or the way liturgies are celebrated. Again, this was not about any pope or popes or the Mass. I am concerned with the very mindset and texts of the last ecumenical Council, and of the whole college of bishops in the world. Has it really become a relativist playground? A modernist stronghold? Are we just extant for charity, social justice, tolerance, and equality? That's the way it's playing out, in my opinion. That is why I hate going to Mass these days. That is why I am afraid of asking anyone to become Catholic.

Quote:You do what Canon Law tells you to do.
All the Christian faithful must direct their efforts to lead a holy life and to promote the growth of the Church and its continual sanctification, according to their own condition.

The fact is that I don't want to promote the growth of the Novus Ordo Church Mentality, knowing full well that the same Roman Catholic Church which provided holy Martyrs for the truths of the Faith has now provided us with heretical teachings across almost the whole of the Magisterium. The Arian bishops just left the Catholic Church; they never actually managed to change it. The fact that very bad change has come from official Council documents within the Church makes me incredibly depressed. This is way beyond red shoes and Masses.

Quote:Work on your own salvation, help the Church no matter what frustrations are thrown in your way, and trust in God.

Thank you for the encouragement, but... help the Church do what, exactly? Organize more sing-alongs with Muslims? Have joint Seder suppers with Jews? Do nothing about the billions of pagans who know nothing of the love of Christ? Those are the legacy of the Novus Ordo Church, and her silliness.

(08-02-2014, 04:34 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: Well, then, why not focus on Him instead of this stupid drama?  Seriously.  Enough already.

Please try to respect and be merciful to those who have an inner agony. Not everyone has so strong a faith in the Church as you might. What a phlegmatic lawyer perceives as stupid drama might be the throes of real spiritual torment in a melancholic.


Well said! This goes WAY deeper than the buffoonish words and actions of Pope Francis or Cardinal Dolan.
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#30
(08-02-2014, 04:50 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: I'm a melancholic/choleric, so believe me, I know stupid drama.

I speak from experience.  Let go of this agony.  It's largely self-inflicted.  You guys are being major drama queens.  You don't have to be preoccupied with these issues.  You are missing your life, including your life in Christ.

I apologize for sizing up your personality and temperament in order to pit you against formerbuddhist, then...

Still, I don't think this particular agony is self-inflicted... at least, not in my case. I can pray at guitar-Masses. The bongo doesn't necessarily bother me, nor the jazz-lounge piano. The bad preaching can be put down to bad formation. A bad pope can be put down to temptation and sin in the world. Vague teachings can be put down to a misunderstanding of the Magisterium's teachings.

When all these things combine, however... therein is the crisis. It's not just each one of these things, isolated, but all of them lumping together at the same time, with the Church becoming so conformed to the World in a single generation. If the very teachings of the Church did/do continue to change since 1963, where are we going? Who are we? How do we know it to be true? Tell me to Have Faith... but faith in whom? Which Christ? The Orthodox Christ? The Trad Christ? The Mariachi Christ? He is different in each theology, whether slightly so or very much so.

This is a battle over the very teaching on the identity of God Himself. Who is God? That is the question no longer being answered in the Catholic world. It has been put aside in favour of everything pleasing to the World. So, is it truly Catholic? Was it ever?

You can't dismiss a tortured mind... sorry...
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