new papal bull
#1
So the new papal bull Misericordiae Vultus was released. I've skimmed through it and haven't found much that is overly objectionable (though I ask anyone who have found something to indicate it).
The worst things are the popes fixation on VII, and how it was such a rupture so that we must now forget everything prior to it. And of course, its just simply wrong to say the Church has forgotten mercy. This part was just silly.

The other thing was what Rorate also caught: the missionaries of mercy. During Lent the pope will send some priests around the world to forgive sins that are reserved to the Holy See. I imagine this would be very good news to a repentant Satanist who have committed sacrilege with the Eucharist. I have no idea how many requests the pope receives for forgiveness of sins reserved to the Holy See; I imagine this and breaking the seal of confession are the most common (somehow I don't think Williamson will be shown much mercy).
There's the danger of this weakening the fight against ordination of women, priestly celibacy and the confidentiality of confession. But if they live only during Lent and are not a constant in the Church, and if there is actually the necessity, then I don't know.

There are some good things (I mean, things we wouldn't necessarily expect from Francis, though quite normal things), like he reminds folks in criminal organizations that “Everyone, sooner or later, will be subject to God’s judgment, from which no one can escape.
And he says the year should be one where one should focus on the works of mercy, which by themselves are great, but which include admonishing the sinner. So, apparently mercy is not being used as a god-term to mean comfy feelings of getting along (though I don't doubt many will use it this way).
The thing about more confessions is very good too. I mean, for all the rhetoric about VII, this is actually going back to pre-VII practice (though somewhere in the text he speaks about the confessor interrupting the penitent ??? ; especially for folks who have never confessed or are away from the sacrament, the confessor asking questions is quite helpful).
Also, my priest commented there would be a lot of indulgences during the year of mercy, but there's no instruction on how to get them.

Of course, I'm usually very naive. I have no idea how perverse, red/purple minds will take this thing and apply to the destruction of the Church moral teaching, which I'm sure they will do it.

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#2
The fixation on Vatican II is just perverse. I cant begin to say just how sick and tired I am of the near constant praise of the Council as this glorious flowering of the Spirit in the heart of the Church. It's a bit much. No doubt there is some good in Vatican II but the near constant praise of everything about it is over the top.

Overall it seems like it's a nice Papal Bull sans the adulation of the glorious new Pentecost that was the Second Vatican Council.

I too do not see how mercy is something that has ever been totally forgotten by the Church, but there is nothing wrong about trying to get people to look at God and the Church as being full of mercy.
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#3
(04-12-2015, 04:18 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: The fixation on Vatican II is just perverse. I cant begin to say just how sick and tired I am of the near constant praise of the Council as this glorious flowering of the Spirit in the heart of the Church. It's a bit much. No doubt there is some good in Vatican II but the near constant praise of everything about it is over the top.

Overall it seems like it's a nice Papal Bull sans the adulation of the glorious new Pentecost that was the Second Vatican Council.

I too do not see how mercy is something that has ever been totally forgotten by the Church, but there is nothing wrong about trying to get people to look at God and the Church as being full of mercy.

I agree, someone needs to point out that this Vatican 2 pornography (which is what it amounts to) is idolatry. Everything is JP II/Paul VI/John XXIII this and Vatican Council that.

Seriously, can someone condemn this for what it is? Idolatory?


Vatican II speaks for itself. Look at the empty pews, parish closures and manifest heretics running amok. It was a disaster for the Church. The constant praising of it is simply embarrassing...all it points out is how deluded the Vatican is.
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#4
(04-12-2015, 04:44 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(04-12-2015, 04:18 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: The fixation on Vatican II is just perverse. I cant begin to say just how sick and tired I am of the near constant praise of the Council as this glorious flowering of the Spirit in the heart of the Church. It's a bit much. No doubt there is some good in Vatican II but the near constant praise of everything about it is over the top.

Overall it seems like it's a nice Papal Bull sans the adulation of the glorious new Pentecost that was the Second Vatican Council.

I too do not see how mercy is something that has ever been totally forgotten by the Church, but there is nothing wrong about trying to get people to look at God and the Church as being full of mercy.

I agree, someone needs to point out that this Vatican 2 pornography (which is what it amounts to) is idolatry. Everything is JP II/Paul VI/John XXIII this and Vatican Council that.

Seriously, can someone condemn this for what it is? Idolatory?


Vatican II speaks for itself. Look at the empty pews, parish closures and manifest heretics running amok. It was a disaster for the Church. The constant praising of it is simply embarrassing...all it points out is how deluded the Vatican is.

I remember noticing that about EWTN shortly after I became Catholic.  There were some things I really liked about it at first, but I noticed that they'd go on and on about Vatican II as if there had never been another council, and that they'd go on and on about John Paul II as if there had never been another pope.
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#5
400,000 people were at Woodstock in 1969, and they are all grey-haired hippies now who never shut up about it. If they think you are inclined to listen in the slightest, they will share all these tedious stories and anecdotes, and relate them back to trite principles that we are somehow supposed to find moving and engaging. "Yeah, man, the Universal Oneness, man. Each of us doing our own thing, but doing our own thing together."

There was a whole "Spirit of Woodstock" as well, constantly invoked by people who were either there themselves, or who wish they were there and want to sound like they were a part of it all.

My impression is that Vatican II is basically the Woodstock for a certain ageing generation of Catholic clergy and religious.

Sometimes, the kindest and politest thing to do is to smile, nod, and forget certain things were said at all.
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#6
Vatican Council II was exactly what the Holy Father said it was, a redesign of the Church. Old fortress out, open doors in. Old mean theology out, acceptance of most everything in. Old liturgy focused on God out, roll your own all about me liturgy in. The previous poster relating Woodstock to Vatican II is well placed. The same spirit of confusion `and progressivism was at work in both cases. The damage done to the Church and society was equally obvious, although denied by the destroyers. This Papacy is the culmination of that spirit. Pope Francis is a believer of the entirety of Vatican II,  and His priorities are shaped by this belief. It is based on a theology that believes Trent and the coumter reformation went in the wrong direction.  Theymsee the council and all that has occured in the past 50 years as a righting moment. We as Catholics can only educate ourselves on the totality of the Faith,  amd pray. This will play out as God desires. St. Athanasius did the same. Stand fast in the Faith
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#7
(somehow I don't think Williamson will be shown much mercy).

He hasn't shown any kind of feeling the need for any kind of repentence. 
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#8
Also, my priest commented there would be a lot of indulgences during the year of mercy, but there's no instruction on how to get them.

Here is information on indulgences;

The traditional norm for going to confession, receiving Holy Communion, and praying for the intentions of the pope, in order to gain a plenary indulgence, was 8 days before or after doing the prescribed work (counting the day of the work). In the Great Jubilee Year 2000, the Apostolic Penitentiary relaxed this norm to "several days (about 20) before or after the indulgenced act" (Gift of the Indulgence, General remarks, 5). The question often arises whether this norm of about 20 days applied only to the Great Jubilee Year Indulgence, or whether it remains in effect.
In an answer to a question posed by this author,  the Apostolic Penitentiary responded that this norm of "about 20 days" remains in effect, since it was contained under the "General remarks on indulgences," and not under those specific to the Jubilee Indulgence.

The following "General remarks on Indulgences" from Gift of the Indulgence summarizes, therefore, the usual conditions given in the Church's law:

1. This is how an indulgence is defined in the Code of Canon Law (can. 992) and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (n. 1471): "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".
2. In general, the gaining of indulgences requires certain prescribed conditions (below, nn. 3, 4), and the performance of certain prescribed works .....

[N.B. The grants of indulgence are contained in the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum (4th ed., 1999), in special grants of the Holy See, such as for the Year of the Holy Eucharist, and in special grants which bishops may establish for their dioceses.]

3. To gain indulgences, whether plenary or partial, it is necessary that the faithful be in the state of grace at least at the time the indulgenced work is completed.

[N.B. Thus, one must be a Catholic in communion with the Pope, i.e. not excommunicated or in schism.]

4. A plenary indulgence can be gained only once a day. In order to obtain it, the faithful must, in addition to being in the state of grace:

—have the interior disposition of complete detachment from sin, even venial sin;

—have sacramentally confessed their sins;

—receive the Holy Eucharist (it is certainly better to receive it while participating in Holy Mass, but for the indulgence only Holy Communion is required);

—pray for the intentions of the Supreme Pontiff.

5. It is appropriate, but not necessary, that the sacramental Confession and especially Holy Communion and the prayer for the Pope's intentions take place on the same day that the indulgenced work is performed; but it is sufficient that these sacred rites and prayers be carried out within several days (about 20) before or after the indulgenced act. Prayer for the Pope's intentions is left to the choice of the faithful, but an "Our Father" and a "Hail Mary" are suggested. One sacramental Confession suffices for several plenary indulgences, but a separate Holy Communion and a separate prayer for the Holy Father's intentions are required for each plenary indulgence.

6. For the sake of those legitimately impeded, confessors can commute both the work prescribed and the conditions required (except, obviously, detachment from even venial sin).

7. Indulgences can always be applied either to oneself or to the souls of the deceased, but they cannot be applied to other persons living on earth.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/indul...itions.htm
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#9
(04-12-2015, 04:01 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: I've skimmed through it and haven't found much that is overly objectionable (though I ask anyone who have found something to indicate it).

This is an issue that is increasingly bothering me about Traditionalists: all too often they will read such documents as these looking for things that can be criticized, rather than for their own edification and spiritual growth. 
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#10
Poche, I meant indulgences particularly attached to this jubilee year.

(04-13-2015, 11:39 PM)Poche Wrote: (somehow I don't think Williamson will be shown much mercy).

He hasn't shown any kind of feeling the need for any kind of repentence. 

You mean like those impenitent sodomites, atheists and remarried folks?

(04-14-2015, 05:54 AM)ecclesiastes Wrote:
(04-12-2015, 04:01 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: I've skimmed through it and haven't found much that is overly objectionable (though I ask anyone who have found something to indicate it).

This is an issue that is increasingly bothering me about Traditionalists: all too often they will read such documents as these looking for things that can be criticized, rather than for their own edification and spiritual growth. 

If you hate us so much why do you hang around here?
Also, notice how this inference on how I've read the document from my comment  is a non sequitur.
So, lay off, will you.
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