Is it inherently scandalous to attend a Novus Ordo Mass?
#11
If the priest is in good standing with his bishop and he is in communion the Holy Father and he does what they recognize is appropriate then he is not doing anything that is schismatic.
As far as the Novus Ordo, since you recognize its validity then I would ask you to remember that we come to mass to be with Jesus. Jesus is teh reason for the Holy Mass. He is truly present in the Holy Eucharist. It is to be with Jesus that we go to Mass.
There was a situation in the life of St Teresa of Avila where there was a priest who was living in sin. This priest was at enmity with God. Jesus spoke to her from the Blessed Sacrament and said that His love for us is so great that He willing allowed that priest who was His enemy to hold Him and allowed Himself to pass through that priest's hands in order to be with us.
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#12
(05-15-2017, 04:47 PM)kbipp Wrote: I've recently come to the conclusion that the Novus Ordo is not a "form" of the Roman Rite but is actually a separate, distinct rite from the Traditional Latin Mass. Furthermore, it seems that what is prayed in the Novus Ordo is different than the TLM, such that Christ's sacrifice on the cross is obscured, the priest's unique role in the Mass, etc. It seems to be only barely Catholic.

If all this is true, it then seems to me that for a priest in the Latin Rite to offer the Novus Ordo Mass is unlawful (illicit, but valid) and he would be performing a schismatic act (objectively, at least), since the Novus Ordo rite is schismatic. I know that one who worships with heretics or schismatics sins by committing scandal; does that apply here? What if (like me) a person knows these things about the Novus Ordo and attends anyway for the possibility of establishing a TLM at the parish?

No way. People in the SSPX and Sedies tend to argue something like this. My simple reply to ultra-rad-trads whenever the topic of supply or jurisdiction comes up is that it is against the nature of God to abandon so many millions of people in such a way who have no other access to the Eurcharist but through the NO. God will not punish his people in such a way for the actions of a handful of apostates in the clergy. God is just and loving. Have faith in God's goodness. Pray for the conversion of the Modernists and Liberals at the Novus Ordo mass. Remember Christ's promise in Luke 11:11, And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
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#13
Nailed it, Pacman. :thumb:

When at a reverent NO, thank God.

When at an irreverent NO, ask God for pardon.

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#14
(05-16-2017, 03:42 AM)Pacman Wrote: No way. People in the SSPX and Sedies tend to argue something like this. My simple reply to ultra-rad-trads whenever the topic of supply or jurisdiction comes up is that it is against the nature of God to abandon so many millions of people in such a way who have no other access to the Eurcharist but through the NO. God will not punish his people in such a way for the actions of a handful of apostates in the clergy. God is just and loving. Have faith in God's goodness. Pray for the conversion of the Modernists and Liberals at the Novus Ordo mass. Remember Christ's promise in Luke 11:11, And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

(05-16-2017, 04:05 AM)In His Love Wrote: Nailed it, Pacman. :thumb:

When at a reverent NO, thank God.

When at an irreverent NO, ask God for pardon.

Well stated, both of y'all.
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#15
I say nothing one way or the other, but I think many would agree that the following, is interesting.

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich's (d.1824) mystical vision of a new Church and a new Liturgy to come:

“I saw a strange church being built against every rule…No angels were supervising the building operations... In that church, nothing came from high above…There was only division and chaos. It is probably a church of human creation, following the latest fashion, as well as the new heterodox Church of Rome, which seems of the same kind…”I saw again the strange big church that was being built there (in Rome). There was nothing holy in it. ...All in this church belonged to the earth, returned to the earth. All was dead, the work of human skill, a church of the latest style, a church of man’s invention like the new heterodox church in Rome.”....“I saw again the new and odd-looking Church which they were trying to build.... People were kneading bread in the crypt below… but it would not rise, nor did they receive the body of Our Lord, but only bread. Those who were in error, through no fault of their own, and who piously and ardently longed for the Body of Jesus were spiritually consoled, but not by their communion. Then, my Guide [Jesus] said: ‘THIS IS BABEL.’ [The Mass in many languages].”....“I saw deplorable things... in church..... All sorts of abominations were perpetrated there. Priests allowed everything and said Mass with much irreverence... I saw that few of them were still godly, and only a few had sound views on things. ....

"I see many excommunicated ecclesiastics who do not seem to be concerned about it, nor even aware of it. Yet, they are (ipso facto) excommunicated whenever they cooperate to [sic] enterprises, enter into associations, and embrace opinions on which an anathema has been cast. It can be seen thereby that God ratifies the decrees, orders, and interdictions issued by the Head of the Church, and that He keeps them in force even though men show no concern for them, reject them, or laugh them to scorn."

Then, I saw that everything that pertained to Protestantism was gradually gaining the upper hand, and the Catholic religion fell into complete decadence... I now see that in this place (Rome) the (Catholic) Church is being so cleverly undermined, that there hardly remain a hundred or so priests who have not been deceived. They all work for destruction, even the clergy. A great devastation is now near at hand....“I saw that many pastors allowed themselves to be taken up with ideas that were dangerous to the Church. They were building a great, strange, and extravagant Church. Everyone was to be admitted in it in order to be united and have equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics, sects of every description. Such was to be the new Church…But God had other designs…” (Source: The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich – Carl E. Schmoeger)
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#16
Thank you, Jeeter. :)

(05-16-2017, 08:25 AM)BC Wrote: I saw again the new and odd-looking Church which they were trying to build.... People were kneading bread in the crypt below… but it would not rise, nor did they receive the body of Our Lord, but only bread.
This can't be applied to the Novus Ordo. The Eucharist is legitimately confected at the Novus Ordo.

http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.p...=3471297.0
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#17
Of course that quote could also apply to those who create their own break off churches in order to preserve tradition, and yet do not stay in union with the Pope. They believe they have the Eucharist but are in schism and instead are just eating bread. It could even pertain to something that occurs even after our time where a fake church breaks off from the real Church. Who knows? Many prophesies aren't clear as to what their meaning actually is and can be construed in so many ways.
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#18
(05-16-2017, 08:54 AM)GangGreen Wrote: Of course that quote could also apply to those who create their own break off churches in order to preserve tradition, and yet do not stay in union with the Pope. They believe they have the Eucharist but are in schism and instead are just eating bread. It could even pertain to something that occurs even after our time where a fake church breaks off from the real Church. Who knows? Many prophesies aren't clear as to what their meaning actually is and can be construed in so many ways.

Well in context it would be referring to those abiding in the new heterodox Church of Rome where irreverent Babel masses are being said with all sorts of abominations, so that would not apply to break off churches trying to preserve tradition.

But it is just a prophecy.  Could be wrong or right.  Perhaps it is referring to another situation in the future of a liturgy and ecclesiastical situation fitting such a description and not our times after all, but my hunch is it is not.
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#19
(05-16-2017, 09:22 AM)BC Wrote: Well in context it would be referring to those abiding in the new heterodox Church of Rome where irreverent Babel masses are being said with all sorts of abominations, so that would not apply to break off churches trying to preserve tradition.
I think there are two problems with this, if I'm understanding your post correctly.

1) You're assuming this vision must apply to the situation within the Church right now.

2) The Church of Rome is not heterodox. Various clergy within Her human element are promoting heterodoxy. There's a huge difference there.
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#20
(05-16-2017, 08:54 AM)GangGreen Wrote: Of course that quote could also apply to those who create their own break off churches in order to preserve tradition, and yet do not stay in union with the Pope. They believe they have the Eucharist but are in schism and instead are just eating bread. It could even pertain to something that occurs even after our time where a fake church breaks off from the real Church. Who knows? Many prophesies aren't clear as to what their meaning actually is and can be construed in so many ways.

Maybe it's just me, but that quote struck me as reflective of the continuing fragmentation of various protestant denominations; one Church was split into protestants, then further divided themselves into Anglicans, then Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists, Anabaptists, African Methodist Episcople, Seventh Day Adventists, all followed by further divisions within, now resulting in unaffiliated churches.
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