Delicate question about sexuality (warning: graphic language)
#1
Hi,
 
As I said in my post of presentation, I am French.
 
Some subjects are quite taboo on french forums and I don’t feel confortable about the idea of talking about the subject of this post with a priest,
 
So, even if I am embarrassed, I thought that this forum would be the best place in order to get answers.
 
Unfortunately, before our conversion, my wife and I committed reprehensible acts, such as oral sex (which, for me, is different from oral stimulation that I considere, based on my researchs and the answers that I got from two traditionalist priests, as being licit) and onanism.
 
By the grace of God I have been able to cease these habits and now it is clear for me that there is only one way to complete a proper marital act.
 
However, I am wondering about the morality of a certain situation.
 
I know that it is licit for a woman that would not have reached orgasm before her husband to stimulate herself (or to be stimulated by him) to completion. It is also licit if, after a first intercourse, the wife and the husband engage immediatley in a second one. In this case foreplay (such as manual or oral stimulations) are certainly allowed too.
 
Is it immoral if, in the two cases that I just mentioned, semen (from the previous intercourse) remains and is « * involved »? The more critical point being probably in the case of oral stimulation.
 
Please forgive the bluntness of my language, I do not intend to shock or disgust anybody. What is shocking or disgusting for some people may be accpetable for others, this is also true for Catholics. I just want to have a clear idea about the morality of that situation.
 
Thank you in advance.
 
Oremus pro invicem.
 
Ludovicus
 
* The word is probably not correct in this sentence but I can’t find an other one. 
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#2
I think the main thing is not to intentionally do anything to separate the unitive from the procreative aspects of the marriage act. Keep it simple that way. There are no hard and fast doctrines on such things that I know of. Hope that helps a little. I'm sure there are others here who can add to that or do much better.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#3
If I understand you your asking about if a couple completes the sex act with the man ending inn the proper way and then immediatly starting a new sex act before the women has had a chance to use the bathroom? Nothing immoral about that, although if both parties have orgasmed and they continue on I would imagine the husband would need to climax again for it to be moral. Although you may need to ask the priest on this one. It would depend if this would be considered a new sex act or a continuation of the same one.
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#4
No, it is not, but I will say it is immoral for the wife to "stimulate" herself to orgasm. This is masturbation and it should be the husband who does this if she has not climaxed yet.

Sex must always be a unitive, cooperative act where climaxing is a result from the stimulation of the other spouse.
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#5
Thank you everyone for these first answers.

Quote:I think the main thing is not to intentionally do anything to separate the unitive from the procreative aspects of the marriage act.

The idea is not to do something that would prevent procreation. Even though it is, in some way, related to the suject of this thread, I mentioned onanism and oral sex in order to help the readers to understand my background. My concern is more about how to behave regarding a certain body fluid that is intrinsically connected to procreation. In this case, should my wife and I be very careful or can we just focus on what pleases us, no matter how risqué it can be, in order to express our mutual love?

Quote:If I understand you your asking about if a couple completes the sex act with the man ending inn the proper way and then immediatly starting a new sex act before the women has had a chance to use the bathroom? 

Yes, this is one of the situations that I had in mind. That is why I insisted upon the fact that manual and oral stimulation could occur as foreplay of this second marital act.

Quote:No, it is not, but I will say it is immoral for the wife to "stimulate" herself to orgasm. This is masturbation and it should be the husband who does this if she has not climaxed yet.

Sex must always be a unitive, cooperative act where climaxing is a result from the stimulation of the other spouse.

Thank you for your contribution, Austenbosten. This is not the subject of this thread but I respectfully disagree with you. It is preferable if it is the husband who stimulate the wife. Nonetheless, it is not immoral if she does it herself and it is not masturbation. Masturbation is a selfish act and in our case it is part of a real marital act. My opinion is based on saint Alphonsus Liguori or Fr. Marie-Michel Labourdette, O.P., to name only two well-known theologians. 
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#6
(04-15-2018, 08:52 PM)Ludovicus Wrote: Some subjects are quite taboo on french forums and I don’t feel confortable about the idea of talking about the subject of this post with a priest

Why would you feel uncomfortable addressing a serious question of moral theology to a priest?

Priests study such matters in the seminary precisely so they can help you to avoid sin and do the correct thing. Also, with the highly sexualized world we live in, you can bet that most priests have heard quite terrible sins. Yours are not unique or probably the worst a good priest has heard.

You should not worry about asking a priest, and if you are too embarrassed to ask publicly, ask in the confessional.

(04-15-2018, 08:52 PM)Ludovicus Wrote: I know that it is licit for a woman that would not have reached orgasm before her husband to stimulate herself (or to be stimulated by him) to completion. It is also licit if, after a first intercourse, the wife and the husband engage immediatley in a second one. In this case foreplay (such as manual or oral stimulations) are certainly allowed too.

Is it immoral if, in the two cases that I just mentioned, semen (from the previous intercourse) remains and is « * involved »? The more critical point being probably in the case of oral stimulation.

You can probably answer this question yourself if you understand the principles involved:

1. The primary purpose of the marital act is the procreation of children.
2. Secondary purposes of the act include the expression of mutual love and the calming of concupiscence by the pleasure of the act (usually by the completion of the act).
3. The primary purpose of the act can never be directly and intentionally frustrated without grave sin.
4. Sexual pleasure by oneself outside of the context of the marital act is not licit.

You are correct by these principles that a woman can be stimulated (by herself or her husband) to complete pleasure as long as the man has completed the act and this is all within the same marital act. This is because the primary purpose is achieved, and thus the secondary ends are legitimate. The self-stimulation of the woman, provided it is immediate, is not masturbation, because it would be legitimate for her to do this during the act itself. If there is a notable break between the man's completion and the woman's actions on herself, or a very long time during which the woman is given such pleasure, then this is a new action and illicit because it is masturbation.

If the man did not complete the act, then further self-pleasure is not licit because this is masturbation, not the continuation of the act, since the act has stopped. The first end is not possible, so the second is no longer licit.

The incomplete act is considered a prolonged act of touching, which is licit between spouses, like a kiss or other embrace. If there is risk of pollution, such acts are not licit. The degree of risk of such incontinence will determine the degree of sin.

Now to your question. The first thing to realize is that oral sexual contact (just as with sodomiacal-like contact) is not a noble type of contact, but a base one. It is not a grave sin if it does not risk incontinence or pollution and the marital act finished correctly, but it is certainly not a highly dignified manner of acting. It also risks introducing bacteria and other diseases into parts of a woman's body where those bacteria or diseases normally do not develop, thus potentially interfering with her fertility or a child's development. Something may not be sinful, but still is not a good way of acting. We should not only be concerned with whether we are sinning, but also whether we are tending toward the more dignified behavior or more base behavior.

If we apply the above principles, however, you can see that so long as you and your wife do nothing which frustrates the primary end of the marital act (by removing the seed in any significant way or preventing it from reaching its proper place in her body) then this is licit. 

If the risk of removing some of the seed is serious (more than what is naturally not going to reach it's proper end), then there would be grave sin.

The same applies to a second act immediately afterward. If there is no break between the acts, if there is risk of seriously disturbing the seed, then there will be grave sin.

With that, it seems to me that such immediate contact after the completion of the man's part does constitute a serious risk of disturbing the seed, thus it would probably be a grave sin.
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#7
I am glad you came to this forum and asked these questions, because it is important for Catholics and non-Catholics to understand that the Church isn't a pleasure-squelching confederacy of prudes. We are supposed to have lots of sex and enjoy ourselves too (all inside the context of marriage of course!). 

If you have already ejaculated into your wife's vagina and afterwards she takes your penis into her mouth and gets some residual semen in her mouth, that is all right as long as you do not ejaculate again into her mouth. The husband must always ejaculate into his wife's vagina and nowhere else.  Oral stimulation is fine as long as there is no ejaculation in the wife's mouth. Christopher West's book Good News about Sex and Marriage and Greg Popcak's book Holy Sex have all of these questions and answers laid out in detail.

If you are good at making love with your wife, she shouldn't have to stimulate herself to orgasm. Perhaps you could try different positions or she could try utilizing Kegel exercises so it is something you can both experience together as a gift to each other.
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#8
(04-16-2018, 10:06 AM)SacraCor714 Wrote: If you are good at making love with your wife, she shouldn't have to stimulate herself to orgasm. Perhaps you could try different positions or she could try utilizing Kegel exercises so it is something you can both experience together as a gift to each other.

Please, please, please stop saying stuff like this.  It has no basis in fact and only causes deep issues in the marriage bed.  

The VAST majority of women can not orgasm due to straight intercourse alone.  Not some but the vast majority can't.   The women's sexual organ is on the outside or her body, not the inside.  Most women require stimulation to this part or orgasm will not be achieved.  Doesnt  matter how good the guy is or anything.   The women's sexual organ is on the outside of her body.  Different positions don't work because direct stimulation is needed.  The man can do it during intercourse or before or after or the women during but it needs to be done for the VAST majority of women or orgasm can not be achieved.  If a women is unable to orgasm by sexual intercourse alone it is not the fault of the man or the women. That is just the way God designed our bodies.

So please do not put these ideas in people's head that if the guy is good enough then the women should orgasm from intercourse alone.  To many women and men online have talked about their problems inot this department and i would gather the vast majority come down to a misunderstanding of how the female body actually works and where the actual sexu all organ is.
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#9
(04-16-2018, 05:01 AM)Ludovicus Wrote:
Quote:No, it is not, but I will say it is immoral for the wife to "stimulate" herself to orgasm. This is masturbation and it should be the husband who does this if she has not climaxed yet.

Sex must always be a unitive, cooperative act where climaxing is a result from the stimulation of the other spouse.

Thank you for your contribution, Austenbosten. This is not the subject of this thread but I respectfully disagree with you. It is preferable if it is the husband who stimulate the wife. Nonetheless, it is not immoral if she does it herself and it is not masturbation. Masturbation is a selfish act and in our case it is part of a real marital act. My opinion is based on saint Alphonsus Liguori or Fr. Marie-Michel Labourdette, O.P., to name only two well-known theologians. 

Well just so you know, the Magisterium has spoken on this and you are wrong.

Quote:The traditional Catholic doctrine that masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder is often called into doubt or expressly denied today. It is said that psychology and sociology show that it is a normal phenomenon of sexual development, especially among the young. It is stated that there is real and serious fault only in the measure that the subject deliberately indulges in solitary pleasure closed in on self ("ipsation"), because in this case the act would indeed be radically opposed to the loving communion between persons of different sex which some hold is what is principally sought in the use of the sexual faculty.

This opinion is contradictory to the teaching and pastoral practice of the Catholic Church. Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Church - in the course of a constant tradition - and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act.[19]

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9. Fréquemment aujourd’hui on met en doute ou l’on nie expressément la doctrine catholique traditionnelle selon laquelle la masturbation constitue un grave désordre moral. La psychologie et la sociologie, dit-on, démontrent que, surtout chez les jeunes, elle est un phénomène normal de l’évolution de la sexualité. Il n’y aurait de faute réelle et grave que dans la mesure où le sujet céderait délibérément à une auto-satisfaction close sur soi (« ipsation »), car alors l’acte serait radicalement contraire à la communion amoureuse entre des personnes de sexe différent, dont certains prétendent qu’elle est ce qui est principalement recherché dans l’usage de la faculté sexuelle.

Cette opinion contredit la doctrine et la pratique pastorale de l’Eglise catholique. Quoi qu’il en soit de la valeur de certains arguments d’ordre biologique ou philosophique dont se sont servis parfois les théologiens, en fait, tant le Magistère de l’Eglise, dans la ligne d’une tradition constante, que le sens moral des fidèles ont affirmé sans hésitation que la masturbation est un acte intrinsèquement et gravement désordonné.(14)


Persona Humana

English - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...na_en.html
Français - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...na_fr.html
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#10
(04-16-2018, 11:51 AM)austenbosten Wrote:
(04-16-2018, 05:01 AM)Ludovicus Wrote:
Quote:No, it is not, but I will say it is immoral for the wife to "stimulate" herself to orgasm. This is masturbation and it should be the husband who does this if she has not climaxed yet.

Sex must always be a unitive, cooperative act where climaxing is a result from the stimulation of the other spouse.

Thank you for your contribution, Austenbosten. This is not the subject of this thread but I respectfully disagree with you. It is preferable if it is the husband who stimulate the wife. Nonetheless, it is not immoral if she does it herself and it is not masturbation. Masturbation is a selfish act and in our case it is part of a real marital act. My opinion is based on saint Alphonsus Liguori or Fr. Marie-Michel Labourdette, O.P., to name only two well-known theologians. 

Well just so you know, the Magisterium has spoken on this and you are wrong.

Quote:The traditional Catholic doctrine that masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder is often called into doubt or expressly denied today. It is said that psychology and sociology show that it is a normal phenomenon of sexual development, especially among the young. It is stated that there is real and serious fault only in the measure that the subject deliberately indulges in solitary pleasure closed in on self ("ipsation"), because in this case the act would indeed be radically opposed to the loving communion between persons of different sex which some hold is what is principally sought in the use of the sexual faculty.

This opinion is contradictory to the teaching and pastoral practice of the Catholic Church. Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Church - in the course of a constant tradition - and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act.[19]

----------------------------------------------

9. Fréquemment aujourd’hui on met en doute ou l’on nie expressément la doctrine catholique traditionnelle selon laquelle la masturbation constitue un grave désordre moral. La psychologie et la sociologie, dit-on, démontrent que, surtout chez les jeunes, elle est un phénomène normal de l’évolution de la sexualité. Il n’y aurait de faute réelle et grave que dans la mesure où le sujet céderait délibérément à une auto-satisfaction close sur soi (« ipsation »), car alors l’acte serait radicalement contraire à la communion amoureuse entre des personnes de sexe différent, dont certains prétendent qu’elle est ce qui est principalement recherché dans l’usage de la faculté sexuelle.

Cette opinion contredit la doctrine et la pratique pastorale de l’Eglise catholique. Quoi qu’il en soit de la valeur de certains arguments d’ordre biologique ou philosophique dont se sont servis parfois les théologiens, en fait, tant le Magistère de l’Eglise, dans la ligne d’une tradition constante, que le sens moral des fidèles ont affirmé sans hésitation que la masturbation est un acte intrinsèquement et gravement désordonné.(14)


Persona Humana

English - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...na_en.html
Français - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...na_fr.html

Just so I know what your talking about are you saying a women stimulating herself after intercourse is a sin? 

Or are you saying not only is the above sin but it's also a sin during intercourse for the women to stimulate herself while the husband is performing the penetration act?
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