So Tired of Going to Confession...
#21
Of course, I would not make that recommendation on a secular website. But I think most here have a fairly strong spiritual life. Maybe you could elaborate on what laity you think you could benefit from such prayers.
I ask Jesus to cover me and my family in His most Precious Blood against any and all incursions of the evil one, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Amen.
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#22
And my recommendation was directed at the initial poster, who has revealed herself as someone who appears well-cathechised, claims to attend Mass and confession regularly, and seems sincerely interested in living a holy life. Does she not meet your criteria of someone with a fairly strong spiritual life?
I ask Jesus to cover me and my family in His most Precious Blood against any and all incursions of the evil one, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Amen.
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#23
But then again, I think there may be a few posters on this website who are not whom they claim to be.
I ask Jesus to cover me and my family in His most Precious Blood against any and all incursions of the evil one, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Amen.
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#24
(04-17-2018, 10:10 AM)SEDLIBERANOSAMALO Wrote: Of course, I would not make that recommendation on a secular website.   But I think most here have a fairly strong spiritual life.  Maybe you could elaborate on what laity you think you could benefit from such prayers.
And my recommendation was directed at the initial poster, who has revealed herself as someone who appears well-cathechised, claims to attend Mass and confession regularly, and seems sincerely interested in living a holy life.  Does she not meet your criteria of someone with a fairly strong spiritual life?
But then again,  I think there may be a few posters on this website who are not whom they claim to be.

There are varying degrees of a spiritual life. Even if someone goes to Mass, is well catechised, goes to confession regularly, and is interested in living a holy life, you still need to take into account how good their prayer life is in general. Someone can be interested and have their heart vested in such a thing, but have a very scattered and inconsistent prayer life. If someone is going to try to do spiritual battle, I would think they should at the minimum be praying morning/evening prayers, praying the Rosary, doing some sort of spiritual reading, and meditation (even for a short time) each day. If someone can't even claim that, then how are they going to jump into battle with evil spirits? Even Father Ripperger warns against this.
Blood of Christ, relief of the burdened, save us.

“It is my design to die in the brew house; let ale be placed in my mouth when I am expiring, that when the choirs of angels come, they may say, “Be God propitious to this drinker.” – St. Columbanus, A.D. 612
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#25
(04-17-2018, 09:55 AM)GangGreen Wrote: Honestly, I'm not so sure that it's a great idea for laity to be praying those kinds of prayers unless they have a fairly strong spiritual life. It's like going to war without wearing any armor.

It's been said before that one battles with what one has, not what one wishes s/he had.
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#26
(04-17-2018, 09:00 AM)SEDLIBERANOSAMALO Wrote: I will not debate whether Father Ripperger violated cannon law.  I do know that  Father Ripperger's book Deliverance Prayers for Use by the Laity (2017) contains the same prayers that are recommended by Father Gabriel Amorth, chief exorcist of Rome until his death last year, and those in Preces et Exorcismi Privati, 5th Edition, which the exorcist in our diocese gave to me and is much less readily available.

But, especially in cases of spiritual battle, one must be prudent, as was pointed out, the devil is a legalist.   If one is looking for deliverance prayers from an approved source, the USCCB did publish a book last year of deliverance prayers for use by the laity.  But the same poster above did warn about using prayers from tainted sources . . .

Fr Ripperger freely and publicly admitted in on of his YouTube video interviews that he did not follow Canon Law, and that a second edition of his book is being vetted by his Ordinary.

Still he justifies still selling the present one using the same logic you offer : well-know people said they were good, and they are contained in other books, even though Canon Law is clear also clear that reprints of prayer or liturgical matter for public consumption must be given a Concordat to ensure they match the original. With this they gain the same value as the original book.

It's fishy enough business that I am told by an FSSP priest that they have been instructed not to recommend the book and to dissuade people from buying or using it.

If the Roman Ritual wants only the holiest and wisest priests and then only after fasting, confessing and offering Mass, to perform an exorcism, and that only with permission of the Bishop and after a serious inquiry to prove possession, then the same should apply mutatis mutandis, for such "deliverance prayers" and "private exorcisms".

Generally the standard Catholic prayers and devotional practices should be the go-to practices. For those who do not even say 5 decades of the Rosary a day, that is where to start. Not with deliverance prayers.

If someone attending Mass, saying a Rosary and doing spiritual reading and meditation each day with confession every 2 weeks or so, wants to use approved deliverance prayers : Fine.

If someone can't be bothered even to say a Rosary each day, then deliverance prayers are the last thing they need. A normal Catholic beginners' spiritual life is what is needed.
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#27
Please reread my initial response to SacraCor714. I wrote ALONG WITH THE SUGGESTIONS OF THE OTHER POSTERS, I would recommend deliverance prayers.

And just so I can wrap my head around your position:

Bad: Traditional catholic prayers from a well-respected theologian

Good: Advice from an anonymous poster with who knows what background on when it is appropriate to say deliverance prayers

Sure sounds inverted to me . . .
I ask Jesus to cover me and my family in His most Precious Blood against any and all incursions of the evil one, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Amen.
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#28
(04-18-2018, 07:37 PM)SEDLIBERANOSAMALO Wrote: Bad:  Traditional catholic prayers from a well-respected theologian

... who can't be bothered to follow the Church's law and is ready to justify himself in his error, rather than repair the error by withdrawing the book until he has gone through the process of obtaining the necessary approvals.

And I might note that the provenance of all of those prayers is not clear. It is not as if the book is just a translation of something else, or a reprinting of an old book. It is a new collection of things which claim to have traditional and orthodox provenance. That's for the local ordinary to decide ...

(04-18-2018, 07:37 PM)SEDLIBERANOSAMALO Wrote: Good:  Advice from an anonymous poster with who knows what background on when it is appropriate to say deliverance prayers

I agree one should not take anonymous advice from a forum as of high value unless there be good reason for it. But that prompts the question : Are you not also an anonymous poster who is suggesting it is a good idea to use the "deliverance prayers" ...

Pot. Kettle. Black.

At least in my own case, there's a 12 year track record here ...
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#29
Nonsense. Let's not compare apples to oranges.

I suggested SacraCor CONSIDER deliverance prayers (along with many other suggestions), and then recommended a book. When you so kindly pointed out that such book (by a priest that many here respect) did not have approval, I recommended others which do.

You then went on to describe (WITHOUT ANY ECCLESIATICAL MERIT OR AUTHORITY) under WHAT SPECIFIC CONDITIONS one could say those deliverance prayers. These are not your conditions to prescribe, unless you are saying twelve years on an internet forum gives you the same qualifications as one's own priest.

And I think what is missing here, so other readers know, is that on an earlier thread, which I alluded to in my initial post, that she contact a priest for her possible spiritual oppression.

I agree that spiritual warfare is not something that should be taken lightly. The end goal of the evil one is to bring one to despair, and to reject God. That was what I was seeing in SacraCor's post. And I would hate for her to be denied what our Holy Mother Church has prescribed for millennia to assist in her battle, especially when she seems sincerely interested in living a life of holiness.
I ask Jesus to cover me and my family in His most Precious Blood against any and all incursions of the evil one, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Amen.
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#30
(04-18-2018, 10:36 PM)SEDLIBERANOSAMALO Wrote: Nonsense.  Let's not compare apples to oranges.

I suggested SacraCor CONSIDER deliverance prayers (along with many other suggestions), and then recommended a book.  When you so kindly pointed out that such book (by a priest that many here respect) did not have approval, I recommended others which do.

You did more than that.

You :
  • a self-admitted anonymous source on an Internet Forum (who you just said is untrustworthy),
  • who has been around for less than 2 months (so has no reputation to fall back on),
  • and who has no ecclesiastical credentials or authority (at least so far as you have provided) as a spiritual director
  • presumed to give a diagnosis (Post no. 10):
(04-16-2018, 07:01 PM)SEDLIBERANOSAMALO Wrote: As I mentioned before on a different post, I really see evidence of spiritual oppression going on in your life.

That would be a diagnosis that really ought to be ferreted out by a spiritual director, confessor or priest, not an anonymous forum poster with no credentials or history to fall back on.

And on top of that made the statement that "I think most here have a fairly strong spiritual life."

Many do, but if you have been following SacraCor's posts, I don't think that is a sensible understanding of her situation. She was living with her fiancée (on questionable advice from a priest), has for a long time been struggling against sexual issues and frequently falling, publicly posted things which were harmful to her marriage, is very easily turned toward despair, and ready to post what many would consider semi-blasphemous (but we know to be cries for help, not a desire to sin).

She needs our prayers, sacrifices, encouragement and care, no doubt. I have had Masses offered for her myself, and pray for her. Still, I seriously doubt you will find that someone going from mortal sin to mortal sin has a "fairly strong spiritual life" and is thus ready for a frontal assualt on the devil.

None of the traditional ascetic writers would recommend such a thing.

(04-18-2018, 10:36 PM)SEDLIBERANOSAMALO Wrote: You then went on to describe (WITHOUT ANY ECCLESIATICAL MERIT OR AUTHORITY) under WHAT SPECIFIC CONDITIONS one could say those deliverance prayers.  These are not your conditions to prescribe, unless you are saying twelve years on an internet forum gives you the same qualifications as one's own priest.

I only summarized what every traditional ascetic writer recommends. Ready Tanquerey, Royo-Marín, St Francis de Sales, Garrigou-Lagrange, Dom Chautard, St Teresa or any other standard ascetic author and all will show that there is a slow and step-wise process to grow in the spiritual life.

I am not saying that deliverance prayers are a bad thing, or evil. Just that they are not the standard, tried-and-true method recommended.

The standard things recommended, in this order, are daily Rosary, daily Communion, fortnightly to monthly confession, frequent recollections of God's presence, spiritual reading, meditation and other liturgical prayers and other private devotions, then on-on-one spiritual direction, additional penances and practices, etc.

The first step is obviously to try to get her out of falling back into sin. The usual method recommended by most spiritual authors for that is activity so there is not the opportunity, regular confession (even multiple times a day), and regular good Communions.

I think she should stick to the usual things unless her confessor recommends another step.

(04-18-2018, 10:36 PM)SEDLIBERANOSAMALO Wrote: And I think what is missing here, so other readers know, is that on an earlier thread, which I alluded to in my initial post, that she contact a priest for her possible spiritual oppression.

If you look at that thread it seems like it was you who suggested that she had some diabolical oppression, for which the remedy is ... start with deliverance prayers! Or perhaps have a priest pray ... deliverance prayers!

I am not saying this is a bad idea, but it's certainly not the place to begin, and it does seem it was you who put the whole notion of oppression out to begin with.

(04-18-2018, 10:36 PM)SEDLIBERANOSAMALO Wrote: I agree that spiritual warfare is not something that should be taken lightly.  The end goal of the evil one is to bring one to despair, and to reject God.  That was what I was seeing in SacraCor's post.   And I would hate for her to be denied what our Holy Mother Church has prescribed for millennia to assist in her battle, especially when she seems sincerely interested in living a life of holiness.

Except, the Church really hasn't done so, at least not in any widespread or common way in the last half a millennium. If it had, the knowledge and books of such prayers and methods would be widely available.

Why do you think that Fr Ripperger printed the book collecting lots of things from here there and everywhere? Perhaps because these prayers and the whole "deliverance" notion had fallen out of common use.

I think you would be hard-pressed to find a standard spiritual author who suggests this method. Rather, you have plenty of popular and unorthodox people like Neal Lozano pushing such things.

Again, I am not saying these are inherently bad or unorthodox, but they are not the place to start.

As was said above, let's help SacraCor deal with the problem that she has, not what might be. If and when she exhausts all other standard methods and her confessor thinks it a good idea, then have at the deliverance prayers.

But that's just the un-educated recommendation of an anonymous Internet Forum resident.
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