Personal Ordinate of the Chair of St. Peter
#11
(07-18-2018, 08:11 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: So too would it be illicit for the Pope to go around making his own Frankenstein Mass out of the Mass of Pius V, the New Mass and the Anglican prayers.

No, it wouldn't. No Pope can bind his successors in disciplinary matters. Pope St Pius V was not 'more Pope' than Pope Benedict XVI - Pope Benedict had the same powers Pope St Pius did to change the liturgy. He approved the Ordinariate Mass.

If Quo primum and Quod a nobis apply to Popes, then why did two canonised Saints (Pius X and John XXIII) violate them? And don't tell me that the 1960 Breviary is a minor revision of the pre-1911 version. So much was removed that two of the volumes are gone, and the post-1911 Psalter barely resembles the old one, and there mostly on Sundays.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Paul's post:
  • aquinas138
Reply
#12
(07-18-2018, 10:09 PM)Paul Wrote:
(07-18-2018, 08:11 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: So too would it be illicit for the Pope to go around making his own Frankenstein Mass out of the Mass of Pius V, the New Mass and the Anglican prayers.

No, it wouldn't. No Pope can bind his successors in disciplinary matters. Pope St Pius V was not 'more Pope' than Pope Benedict XVI - Pope Benedict had the same powers Pope St Pius did to change the liturgy. He approved the Ordinariate Mass.

If Quo primum and Quod a nobis apply to Popes, then why did two canonised Saints (Pius X and John XXIII) violate them? And don't tell me that the 1960 Breviary is a minor revision of the pre-1911 version. So much was removed that two of the volumes are gone, and the post-1911 Psalter barely resembles the old one, and there mostly on Sundays.

Quo Primum is on the level of dogma. It is not disciplinary.

Pius X did not violate Quo Primum since he did not modify the Mass. John XXIII committed an illegal act (changing the Roman Canon).
Reply
#13
(07-18-2018, 08:11 PM)Mark Williams Wrote:
(07-18-2018, 07:16 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-18-2018, 07:12 PM)Credidi Propter Wrote: It always just seemed like a Novus Ordo with prettier language to me. A lot like rewriting an edition of the National Enquirer in Shakespearean English.

That may very well be, but it in no way effects its liceity or validity.

That's a bit rash.

It would be illicit for the priest to go around changing the Mass of Pius V. So too would it be illicit for the Pope to go around making his own Frankenstein Mass out of the Mass of Pius V, the New Mass and the Anglican prayers.

Validity is determined on the basis of whether the priest celebrant is an actual priest, and whether the words of consecration are pronounced in their most minimally-acceptable form, that is, "This Is My Body", "This Is My Blood". However it is illicit (mortally sinful) to knowingly omit "Mysterium Fidei" in its proper place in the Words of Consecration for the blood, which is one reason why the New Mass is evil.

It is a mortal sin to attend a Mass that we know to be illicit, or to be possibly doubtful.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not “evil”. Abuses to the Mass are evil, but the Mass itself is the Mass. Be careful how you say things, because people will believe that you call the Mass “evil”.
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.


Reply
#14
(07-18-2018, 10:15 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: Quo Primum is on the level of dogma. It is not disciplinary.

No, it's not. Show me something saying it is. If it's dogma, then Pope Paul VI is a heretic for promulgating the new Mass, which means the rite of Mass that almost all Catholics attend is invalid. That's probably your belief, but that's the gates of hell prevailing.

(07-18-2018, 10:15 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: Pius X did not violate Quo Primum since he did not modify the Mass. John XXIII committed an illegal act (changing the Roman Canon).

Go read Quod a nobis, at the beginning of the Breviary. I'll wait. Very similar language of condemnation for anyone changing it is in there, and St Pius X ignored it.
[-] The following 4 users Like Paul's post:
  • aquinas138, Dominicana, jovan66102, MagisterMusicae
Reply
#15
(07-18-2018, 08:11 PM)Mark Williams Wrote:
(07-18-2018, 07:16 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-18-2018, 07:12 PM)Credidi Propter Wrote: It always just seemed like a Novus Ordo with prettier language to me. A lot like rewriting an edition of the National Enquirer in Shakespearean English.

That may very well be, but it in no way effects its liceity or validity.

That's a bit rash.

It would be illicit for the priest to go around changing the Mass of Pius V. So too would it be illicit for the Pope to go around making his own Frankenstein Mass out of the Mass of Pius V, the New Mass and the Anglican prayers.

Validity is determined on the basis of whether the priest celebrant is an actual priest, and whether the words of consecration are pronounced in their most minimally-acceptable form, that is, "This Is My Body", "This Is My Blood". However it is illicit (mortally sinful) to knowingly omit "Mysterium Fidei" in its proper place in the Words of Consecration for the blood, which is one reason why the New Mass is evil.

It is a mortal sin to attend a Mass that we know to be illicit, or to be possibly doubtful.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not “evil”. Abuses to the Mass are evil. Be EXTREMELY careful how you phrase things, because people will think you mean to insult the Mass, which is blasphemy.
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.


Reply
#16
Nonsense.
Reply
#17
(07-18-2018, 11:42 PM)Paul Wrote:
(07-18-2018, 10:15 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: Quo Primum is on the level of dogma. It is not disciplinary.

No, it's not. Show me something saying it is. If it's dogma, then Pope Paul VI is a heretic for promulgating the new Mass, which means the rite of Mass that almost all Catholics attend is invalid. That's probably your belief, but that's the gates of hell prevailing.

(07-18-2018, 10:15 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: Pius X did not violate Quo Primum since he did not modify the Mass. John XXIII committed an illegal act (changing the Roman Canon).

Go read Quod a nobis, at the beginning of the Breviary. I'll wait. Very similar language of condemnation for anyone changing it is in there, and St Pius X ignored it.
And not just pius X. Centuries before him the hymns were changed, and countless additions and motifications to the calendar were enacted throughout the years. Using the Quo Primum/Quod a Nobis dogma logic we haven't had a pope since Pius V himself.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Florus's post:
  • jovan66102
Reply
#18
(07-18-2018, 06:50 PM)Patmappas28 Wrote: Does anyone know the theology of the Mass that this society celebrates and if it is licit or not. I've been attending their daily Mass and see a weird Novus Ordo/Tridentine Mass mixture and it's really bugging me out. I want to worship God the way he wants to be worshiped but sadly I don't have any Latin Masses near me to attend daily Mass and receive the Eucharist. And also if anybody has a clue, is the Byzantine rite of the Church still licit or has that been wrecked by the Vatican too?

:eyeroll:
[-] The following 1 user Likes Melkite's post:
  • jovan66102
Reply
#19
(07-18-2018, 10:15 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: Quo Primum is on the level of dogma. It is not disciplinary.

Beliefs like this are what happen when you combine the faith with superstitious piety.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Melkite's post:
  • jovan66102
Reply
#20
(07-19-2018, 01:32 PM)Mark Williams Wrote: Nonsense.

You know, for someone who denies being a sedevacantist, you sure sound like one. As Florus said, if Quo Primum and Quod a Nobis are dogma, there basically hasn't been a valid Pope in a long time.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)