Which Church?
#11
(07-19-2018, 07:05 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-19-2018, 06:29 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Your first duty as a Catholic is to sanctify your soul, practice virtue, pray and try to keep yourself in the State of Grace, or get there if you've lost it.

THIS, in spades! I am continually bothered by Trads who forget this obvious fact! Did the average Catholic during the Western Schism worry about who was really Pope? I seriously doubt it. I'm sure they just kept plodding along, trying to get to heaven.

Did they even know who the pope was? The part of Mass where he's prayed for by name is said silently, anyway.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
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#12
(07-19-2018, 06:29 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: No.

Your first duty as a Catholic is to sanctify your soul, practice virtue, pray and try to keep yourself in the State of Grace, or get there if you've lost it.

I thought our first duty as Catholics was deciding upon the Earths roundness or lack thereof. Followed by which way to hold a fork, scanning Trumps' sneezes for secret communications from the illuminati, and afterwards examining the bodies of celebrities so as to determine if they really are their biological sex.

Well you learn something new everyday...
Surréxit Dóminus vere, Alleluia!
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#13
(07-19-2018, 06:29 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(07-19-2018, 05:47 PM)pabbie Wrote: So your first goal as a Catholic today is to determine which position is the correct one.

No.

Your first duty as a Catholic is to sanctify your soul, practice virtue, pray and try to keep yourself in the State of Grace, or get there if you've lost it.

Eventually, yes, we will be confronted with dealing with the practical realities of the Crisis in the Church. There will be differing replies and responses to it. We may disagree which is correct, and that is fine. The very fact that there is a Crisis, means that there is confusion and ambiguity, and we do not have the leaders and resources we normally would to help us know the Truth.

When that time comes, and not before, we should study the matter, take advice, try to understand the different issue, and then act on whatever, after prayerful reflection and study, seems the best way to save our soul. Whatever position we do take up, we should be ready to continually consider. To find someone who is an intransigent FSSP person unwilling to consider his position is as bad as a Sedevecantist who refuses to consider and defend his position.

In the end, however, we will not be asked to take up the correct "position" but if we corresponded with the grace God gave us, and thus kept ourselves in the State of Grace and grew in Virtue.

You acknowledge there are different positions that can be held on the current crisis in the Church. Only one of those positions can be true..... We obviously can't believe that the Pope is both a true Vicar of Christ and an imposter at the same time. Saying both views are okay is absurd.

You say we don't have the leaders and resources to help us know the truth, but that is absolutely false. We have 2000 years of Church teaching to tell us what to do in the crisis we are witnessing right now. Looking at the posts in these forums, people are obviously seeing heresies throughout the church on a global scale. The Church has defined heresy for us already (the doubt or denial of a Catholic doctrine), and the Church has already given the faithful specific instructions on what to do when they see heresy, and that is to completely avoid the source:
  • "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment." Titus 3:10-11
  • "If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you. For he that saith unto him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works." 2 John 1:9-11
  • “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.” Galatians 1:8
We don't need to wait around for more leaders or more instruction from the Church on what we are seeing, and to say so is a complete copout. We've already been given instructions at the very start of the Church. Any Catholic that says they don't know what to do, doesn't have a leg to stand on.
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#14
(07-19-2018, 07:05 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-19-2018, 06:29 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Your first duty as a Catholic is to sanctify your soul, practice virtue, pray and try to keep yourself in the State of Grace, or get there if you've lost it.

THIS, in spades! I am continually bothered by Trads who forget this obvious fact! Did the average Catholic during the Western Schism worry about who was really Pope? I seriously doubt it. I'm sure they just kept plodding along, trying to get to heaven.
 
If you read the article on the Western Schism in the Catholic Encyclopedia, it is very clear in stating that the people at the time each took their sides and stuck with it. They didn't just throw up their hands and say the Pope can't be known.

The Western Schism is a poor comparison anyway given that it was a confusion over an election. The problem today is whether doctrines are heretical or not. We have plenty of documentation from the Church to know what is heresy and what is not. And I will say the same in response; "I'm continually bothered by Trads forget this obvious fact!"
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#15
OK - as a newbie I throw my personal experience in here. I thought the whole point of Catholic over protestant is there is a united teaching and an authority to promote and hold to it.

Then I find out there are "Charismatic Catholics", and they are supported by the Vatican. I knew simply from Scripture and confirmed from further research what they did was not right. I also learned the movement came from Catholics having hands laid on them by neo-Pentecostals to receive something that was not happening in the Catholic Church.

The term Catholic Charismatic is literally an oxymoron to me - and the fact that the Vatican confirms it as legit seems like heresy, as they are then confirming people had to go outside the Catholic Faith to receive the Spirit.

As a newer Catholic I feel like a protestant all over again - having to figure out within the Catholic Church what was right and wrong.
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#16
There are a lot of terribly misguided people, because of the post-Vatican II chaos; what's worse, they call themselves Catholic. My advise is just attend a Trad Latin Mass, get yourself a copy of a good catechism (Baltimore, for example) as the CCC can be a bit vague, and let God speak to you. If you have a question, ask it here.
:monstrance:Deo Gratias et Ave Maria! :monstrance:
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A Dieu mon ame,
Mon arme au roi,
Mon Coeur a la dame,
Mon honneur a moi!
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#17
(07-20-2018, 06:22 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: OK - as a newbie I throw my personal experience in here.  I thought the whole point of Catholic over protestant is there is a united teaching and an authority to promote and hold to it.

Then I find out there are "Charismatic Catholics", and they are supported by the Vatican.  I knew simply from Scripture and confirmed from further research what they did was not right.  I also learned the movement came from Catholics having hands laid on them by neo-Pentecostals to receive something that was not happening in the Catholic Church.  

The term Catholic Charismatic is literally an oxymoron to me - and the fact that the Vatican confirms it as legit seems like heresy, as they are then confirming people had to go outside the Catholic Faith to receive the Spirit.

As a newer Catholic I feel like a protestant all over again - having to figure out within the Catholic Church what was right and wrong.

It can be confusing, but my understanding of Catholic has always been the adherence to Church teachings and papal authority.  Even while the Charismatic Catholic movement seems more protty than Catholic, they follow Catholic teaching regarding transubstantiation, BVM, and papal succession/authority, in contrast to the beliefs of a more Catholic appearing Anglican church that has a reverent service, yet follows none of the above.
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I want creation to penetrate you with so much admiration that wherever you go, the least plant may bring you clear remembrance of the Creator.  A single plant, a blade of grass, or one speck of dust is sufficient to occupy all your intelligence in beholding the art with which it has been made  - Saint Basil

Heaven is under our feet, as well as over our heads. - Thoreau, Walden
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#18
Yes - the Charismatics I guess fall under the misguided - and I think that's a literal description - the clergy have mis-guided them into thinking this stuff is good.

But, the ones here do tend to follow Church teaching better than the average Catholic from my findings. My ex-seminarian friend said can we really blame them for getting in to this? They are looking for something active to be a part of, and the Church where we are provides almost nothing except this - no Bible study, or active groups. So I have to give them that and help build something more to be a part of.

They seem to respect Fr. Ripperger, and he has a video that shows what the real Pentecost was and that this is not "another Pentecost". When the time is right they may hear this.

My wife and I have just realized the new CCC needs to go away and be replaced with the Baltimore in our house.

Part of being Catholic is Papal authority - but what do we do when one has to almost ignore the current Pope to keep sanity? What does that say for Papal authority?
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#19
(07-20-2018, 08:24 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: Yes - the Charismatics I guess fall under the misguided - and I think that's a literal description - the clergy have mis-guided them into thinking this stuff is good.

But, the ones here do tend to follow Church teaching better than the average Catholic from my findings.  My ex-seminarian friend said can we really blame them for getting in to this?  They are looking for something active to be a part of, and the Church where we are provides almost nothing except this - no Bible study, or active groups.  So I have to give them that and help build something more to be a part of.

They seem to respect Fr. Ripperger, and he has a video that shows what the real Pentecost was and that this is not "another Pentecost".  When the time is right they may hear this.

My wife and I have just realized the new CCC needs to go away and be replaced with the Baltimore in our house.

Part of being Catholic is Papal authority - but what do we do when one has to almost ignore the current Pope to keep sanity?  What does that say for Papal authority?

My experience is that Charismatics do believe in satanic possession and exorcism so they may be open to hearing Fr. Ripperger.  

As for Papal authority, I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that infallible statements ex-cathedra are fairly rare. 

So just following the faith as it has been handed down through the centuries is pretty basic.
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#20
(07-20-2018, 09:10 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 08:24 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: Yes - the Charismatics I guess fall under the misguided - and I think that's a literal description - the clergy have mis-guided them into thinking this stuff is good.

But, the ones here do tend to follow Church teaching better than the average Catholic from my findings.  My ex-seminarian friend said can we really blame them for getting in to this?  They are looking for something active to be a part of, and the Church where we are provides almost nothing except this - no Bible study, or active groups.  So I have to give them that and help build something more to be a part of.

They seem to respect Fr. Ripperger, and he has a video that shows what the real Pentecost was and that this is not "another Pentecost".  When the time is right they may hear this.

My wife and I have just realized the new CCC needs to go away and be replaced with the Baltimore in our house.

Part of being Catholic is Papal authority - but what do we do when one has to almost ignore the current Pope to keep sanity?  What does that say for Papal authority?

My experience is that Charismatics do believe in satanic possession and exorcism so they may be open to hearing Fr. Ripperger.  

As for Papal authority, I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that infallible statements ex-cathedra are fairly rare. 

So just following the faith as it has been handed down through the centuries is pretty basic.
 
Obeying the Pope is not limited to infallible statements, as the quotes from 2 popes below confirm. So Francis is either the Pope and we give him our full obedience with regard to faith and morals, or he is not the Pope and is owed no obedience at all. As the OP mentions, papal authority goes out the window when Catholics try to choose when to obey the Pope and when not to.....that, by definition, is schism.

Pope Pius IX, Letter to Archbishop Scherr of Munich in 1863:

"We desire to reassure ourselves that they did not mean to limit the obligation, which strictly binds Catholic teachers and writers, to those things only which are proposed by the infallible judgment of the Church as dogmas of faith to be believed by everybody. In a like manner, We are convinced that it was not their intention to state that the perfect adherence to revealed truths (which they regard as absolutely necessary for true progress in science and for refuting errors) can be maintained, if the submission of faith is given only to those dogmas expressly defined by the Church. The reason for this is the following: even supposing that we are treating of that subjection which is to be made by an explicit act of divine faith, this must not be limited to those things which have been defined in the express decrees of the ecumenical councils or of the Roman Pontiffs of this See; but it must also be extended to those things which, through the ordinary teaching of the whole Church throughout the world, are proposed as divinely revealed and, as a result, by universal and constant consent of Catholic theologians are held to be matters of faith. "
 
Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, in 1950 (Denz. 2313):

"It is not to be thought that what is set down in Encyclical Letters does not demand assent in itself, because in this the popes do not exercise the supreme power of their magisterium. For these matters are taught by the ordinary magisterium, regarding which the following is pertinent: "He who heareth you, heareth me." [Luke 10:16]; and usually what is set forth and inculcated in the Encyclical Letters, already pertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their acts, after due consideration, express an opinion on a hitherto controversial matter, it is clear to all that this matter, according to the mind and will of the same Pontiffs, cannot any longer be considered a question of free discussion among the theologians."
 
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