Council of Trent
#11
I don't think these people will ever get the message...
"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin and freed itself from them. Keep hell’s torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears: ‘Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies.’ Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."

- St. Isaias the Solitary

"Constant action overcomes cold; being still overcomes heat. Purity
and stillness give the correct law to all under heaven."

- Tao Te Ching 45
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#12
(07-20-2018, 12:40 PM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 10:55 AM)Old World Order Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 09:39 AM)Paul Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 08:31 AM)Old World Order Wrote: Which means that a Pope cannot even say that the received and approved rites customarily used can be omitted or changed.

St Pius X did.

St. Pius X did no such thing.

He most certainly did, by abolishing the traditional Roman psalter and forbidding its use. And St Pius V before him (and after Trent!) made an alteration to the Roman psalter, too, by moving several psalms from Sunday Prime to weekdays.

That concerned the calender. The customary ceremonies and rites in the solemn administration of the sacraments were left intact.
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#13
(07-20-2018, 04:27 PM)Old World Order Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 12:40 PM)aquinas138 Wrote: He most certainly did, by abolishing the traditional Roman psalter and forbidding its use. And St Pius V before him (and after Trent!) made an alteration to the Roman psalter, too, by moving several psalms from Sunday Prime to weekdays.

That concerned the calender. The customary ceremonies and rites in the solemn administration of the sacraments were left in tact.

Is the calendar not part of a rite? And Pius X's change was MORE than just an addition of feasts to the calendar, it was a complete reworking of the praying of the psalms, this is at the very heart of the liturgy. 

You do know that the sacred liturgy (in the way we use that term in the west) comprises more than just the celebration of the Mass?
 
Read Quod a Nobis, then about the reforms to the Roman Divine Office since that document, and then check and see if your interpretation matches up with reality. Adequatio rei et intellectus.
"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin and freed itself from them. Keep hell’s torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears: ‘Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies.’ Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."

- St. Isaias the Solitary

"Constant action overcomes cold; being still overcomes heat. Purity
and stillness give the correct law to all under heaven."

- Tao Te Ching 45
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#14
(07-20-2018, 12:40 PM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 10:55 AM)Old World Order Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 09:39 AM)Paul Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 08:31 AM)Old World Order Wrote: Which means that a Pope cannot even say that the received and approved rites customarily used can be omitted or changed.

St Pius X did.

St. Pius X did no such thing.

He most certainly did, by abolishing the traditional Roman psalter and forbidding its use. And St Pius V before him (and after Trent!) made an alteration to the Roman psalter, too, by moving several psalms from Sunday Prime to weekdays.

The reforms of the Breviary by Pope St. Pius X were so "revolutionary" that it is nearly as impossible to take a pre-1911 breviary and use it as it would be to take a Novus Ordo Latin Missal and try to say the traditional Mass with it. 

It would be missing several significant chunks that one would need to supply, may have some of the same prayers, but may not, and you'd need to flip back and forth to find the different parts that correspond with the other, and even then you would have to split up different sections. In short, it is practically impossible unless you're an expert and already know what you have to do.

The reason that the analogy does not go further is that the Breviary reform did not in any way substantially change what the Breviary was or alter what the cleric was doing when reciting it, whereas the Novus Ordo Mass intends to change substantially what is being done (no longer a sacrifice, but communal gathering and meal), and alter what the priest is doing (presiding and leading, not acting as priest).

Formally, very different, but materially similar in their degree.

Which is precisely why the who "Quo Primum is infallible dogma" argument is foundationally flawed.
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#15
These might help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMlyakf7...e=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81j64qvV...e=youtu.be
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#16
(07-20-2018, 04:39 PM)Florus Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 04:27 PM)Old World Order Wrote:
(07-20-2018, 12:40 PM)aquinas138 Wrote: He most certainly did, by abolishing the traditional Roman psalter and forbidding its use. And St Pius V before him (and after Trent!) made an alteration to the Roman psalter, too, by moving several psalms from Sunday Prime to weekdays.

That concerned the calender. The customary ceremonies and rites in the solemn administration of the sacraments were left in tact.

Is the calendar not part of a rite? And Pius X's change was MORE than just an addition of feasts to the calendar, it was a complete reworking of the praying of the psalms, this is at the very heart of the liturgy.

You can change the calendar without changing the customary ceremonies and rites in the solemn administration of the sacraments. So the answer to your question would be NO. Also, changing a psalm is not at the heart of the liturgy. Where do you get this stuff? The substance of the ceremony and rite does not change, due to a different Psalm being read. The formula remains the same.

Quote:You do know that the sacred liturgy (in the way we use that term in the west) comprises more than just the celebration of the Mass?

Sure, it means you can add a rock band, a circus, a dog show, flying Nuns and so on. Of course according to you, a Pope is not anathema and out of the Church for allowing this, right? He's allowed to permit such things because he is the Pope, correct?
 
Quote:Read Quod a Nobis, then about the reforms to the Roman Divine Office since that document, and then check and see if your interpretation matches up with reality. Adequatio rei et intellectus.

Quod a Nobis has to do with the Breviary, which can be changed by a Pope. The formula of the Mass cannot be changed.
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#17
Ok, I went a little overboard with the "flying Nuns" comment.
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#18
(07-20-2018, 09:15 PM)Old World Order Wrote: Quod a Nobis has to do with the Breviary, which can be changed by a Pope. The formula of the Mass cannot be changed.

You haven't read Quod a nobis, have you?
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#19
Pope Pius V Wrote:Omnes vero, et quascumque Apostolicas et alias permissiones ac consuetudines, et statuta etiam juramento, confirmatione Apostolica, vel alia firmitate munita, necnon privilegia, licentias et indulta precandi et psallendi, tam in Choro quam extra illum, more et ritu Breviariorum sic suppressorum, prædictis Ecclesiis, Monasteriis, Conventibus, Militiis, Ordinibus et locis, necnon S. R. E. Cardinalibus, Patriarchis, Archiepiscopis, Episcopis, Abbatibus et aliis Ecclesiarum Prælatis, ceterisque omnibus et singulis personis ecclesiasticis, sæcularibus, et regularibus, utriusque sexus, quacumque causa concessa, approbata, et innovata, quibuscumque concepta formulis, ac decretis, et clausulis roborata, omnino revocamus: volumusque illa omnia vim et effectus de cetero non habere. Omni itaque alio usu quibuslibet, ut dictum est, interdicto, hoc Nostrum Breviarium, ac precandi psallendique formulam in omnibus universi orbis Ecclesiis, Monasteriis, Ordinibus, et locis etiam exemptis, in quibus Officium ex more et ritu dictæ Romanæ Ecclesiæ dici debet, aut consuevit, salva prædicta institutione, vel consuetudine prædictos ducentos annos superante, præcipimus observari: Statuentes Breviarium ipsum nullo umquam tempore vel totum, vel ex parte mutandum, vel ei aliquid addendum, vel omnino detrahendum esse; ac quoscumque, qui Horas Canonicas ex more et ritu ipsius Romanæ Ecclesiæ, jure vel consuetudine dicere vel psallere debent, propositis pœnis per Canonicas sanctiones constitutis in eos, qui divínum Officium quotidie non dixerint, ad dicendum et psallendum posthac in perpetuum Horas ipsas diurnas et nocturnas, ex hujus Romani Breviarii præscripto et ratione omnino teneri: neminemque ex iis, quibus hoc dicendi psallendique munus necessario impositum est, nisi hac sola formula satisfacere posse. Jubemus igitur, omnes et singulos Patriarchas, Archiepiscopos, Episcopos, Abbates, et ceteros Ecclesiarum Prælatos, ut omissis quæ sic suppressimus et abolevimus, ceteris omnibus etiam privatim per eos constitutis, Breviarium hoc in suis quisque Ecclesiis, Monasteriis, Conventibus, Ordinibus, Militiis, Diœcesibus, et locis prædictis introducant: et tam ipsi quam ceteri omnes presbyteri et clerici, sæculares et regulares, utriusque sexus, necnon milites et exempti, quibus Officium dicendi et psallendi quomodocumque, sicut prædicitur, injunctum est, ut ex hujus nostri Breviarii formula, tam in Choro quam extra illum, dicere et psallere procurent...Si quis autem hoc attentare præsumpserit, indignationem omnipotentis Dei, ac beatorum Petri et Pauli Apostolorum ejus se noverit incursurum.
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#20
(07-20-2018, 09:25 PM)Paul Wrote:
Pope Pius V Wrote:Omnes vero, et quascumque Apostolicas et alias permissiones ac consuetudines, et statuta etiam juramento, confirmatione Apostolica, vel alia firmitate munita, necnon privilegia, licentias et indulta precandi et psallendi, tam in Choro quam extra illum, more et ritu Breviariorum sic suppressorum, prædictis Ecclesiis, Monasteriis, Conventibus, Militiis, Ordinibus et locis, necnon S. R. E. Cardinalibus, Patriarchis, Archiepiscopis, Episcopis, Abbatibus et aliis Ecclesiarum Prælatis, ceterisque omnibus et singulis personis ecclesiasticis, sæcularibus, et regularibus, utriusque sexus, quacumque causa concessa, approbata, et innovata, quibuscumque concepta formulis, ac decretis, et clausulis roborata, omnino revocamus: volumusque illa omnia vim et effectus de cetero non habere. Omni itaque alio usu quibuslibet, ut dictum est, interdicto, hoc Nostrum Breviarium, ac precandi psallendique formulam in omnibus universi orbis Ecclesiis, Monasteriis, Ordinibus, et locis etiam exemptis, in quibus Officium ex more et ritu dictæ Romanæ Ecclesiæ dici debet, aut consuevit, salva prædicta institutione, vel consuetudine prædictos ducentos annos superante, præcipimus observari: Statuentes Breviarium ipsum nullo umquam tempore vel totum, vel ex parte mutandum, vel ei aliquid addendum, vel omnino detrahendum esse; ac quoscumque, qui Horas Canonicas ex more et ritu ipsius Romanæ Ecclesiæ, jure vel consuetudine dicere vel psallere debent, propositis pœnis per Canonicas sanctiones constitutis in eos, qui divínum Officium quotidie non dixerint, ad dicendum et psallendum posthac in perpetuum Horas ipsas diurnas et nocturnas, ex hujus Romani Breviarii præscripto et ratione omnino teneri: neminemque ex iis, quibus hoc dicendi psallendique munus necessario impositum est, nisi hac sola formula satisfacere posse. Jubemus igitur, omnes et singulos Patriarchas, Archiepiscopos, Episcopos, Abbates, et ceteros Ecclesiarum Prælatos, ut omissis quæ sic suppressimus et abolevimus, ceteris omnibus etiam privatim per eos constitutis, Breviarium hoc in suis quisque Ecclesiis, Monasteriis, Conventibus, Ordinibus, Militiis, Diœcesibus, et locis prædictis introducant: et tam ipsi quam ceteri omnes presbyteri et clerici, sæculares et regulares, utriusque sexus, necnon milites et exempti, quibus Officium dicendi et psallendi quomodocumque, sicut prædicitur, injunctum est, ut ex hujus nostri Breviarii formula, tam in Choro quam extra illum, dicere et psallere procurent...Si quis autem hoc attentare præsumpserit, indignationem omnipotentis Dei, ac beatorum Petri et Pauli Apostolorum ejus se noverit incursurum.

And? What is your point?
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