Schism and End Times Scenario
#51
(09-13-2019, 11:32 PM)Florus Wrote: I think that in the end, these places (Rome, Poland, Russia etc) and people (Francis, Benedict, Obama etc) are going to be of such little importance. Imagine how the disintegration of the Roman Empire or the fall of Byzantium would have felt/looked like? Looks like neither of those things ushered in the end times even though it looked so close. History is full of prophecies and predictions that came and went, what makes ours so special?

Because they didn't have an apparent successor of St Peter teaching/preaching heresy, during the French revolution the Pope was captured and the Church was heavily persecuted, but these things were from without, not within the Church that Christ promised the gates of hell would never prevail. We have also all heard the 'Bad Popes' line before many times, however from what I've learned, this was things like mistresses and other sins, it's one thing to have a mistress, it's quite another to excuse adultery IMO.

God Bless You
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#52
(09-13-2019, 11:37 PM)Markie Boy Wrote: I hear you - that can lean to protestantism. But there is a truth in there that I am not wording clearly, partially because I'm too tired, and partially because I'm still working on it.

The truth in it IMO, is that while there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, there can be those outside the Catholic Church through ignorance and still be saved. In regards to the ekklesia, without St Peter the rock and his successors, there is no ultimate authority to define who is part of this group and who is not, it's just private interpretations, Protestantism and thousands of Christian sects.

(09-13-2019, 11:37 PM)Markie Boy Wrote: At times I wanted to leave Catholicism because of the scandal, and poor or absent leadership.


To whom shall I go? Rome has the successors to St Peter (except of course I have strong reasons to believe Francis election was rigged and thus he was not canonically elected and thus his teachings are not binding which is the only case that can make sense IMO).

God Bless You
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#53
We simply have no authority to say who is and isn't part of the group that is saved. You can try to define that group as the Catholic Church, with a list of exceptions, but there must always be those exceptions, which ends up showing it's not only the Catholic Church.

When the apostles find someone doing great works in Jesus name, but he's not one of them, they wanted to stop him. But Jesus instructions were not to stop him, for whoever is not against us is with us.
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#54
(09-13-2019, 10:47 PM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(09-13-2019, 08:13 PM)Augustinian Wrote: The true Mass. As long as we have the true Mass, in its proper form (the consecration is key), then we still have the Church. If, for whatever reason, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass were to suddenly cease then the world would come to an end.

Don't the Orthodox have a valid Holy Eucharist though? The problem arises that, without a successor to St Peter, without an ultimate authority on Earth, who is to say what the True Mass is or is not? If Francis is legitimate then his teachings are binding, if he is not then his teachings are not binding, if his teachings are binding then the gates of hell have prevailed IMO which I know can never happen.

God Bless You

Valid, but not licit. Yes, it's most likely the body, blood, soul and divinity on the altar, but it's still an act outside of the Church and therefore does nothing towards salvation.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#55
(09-14-2019, 07:36 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: We simply have no authority to say who is and isn't part of the group that is saved.

But then why did Christ give St Peter and his successors the keys if he did not intend a visible head of His Church here on Earth?

(09-14-2019, 07:36 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: When the apostles find someone doing great works in Jesus name, but he's not one of them, they wanted to stop him. But Jesus instructions were not to stop him, for whoever is not against us is with us.

He was doing something good though, now what if he started teaching that divorce and remarriage is okay and then marrying those in adultery? By what authority can he be told to stop? By what authority does my private interpretation of Scripture trump his? Hence why I believe Francis election was rigged and thus not canonically elected and thus we are not bound by his heresies and thus the gates of hell have not prevailed.

God Bless You
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#56
(09-14-2019, 08:10 AM)Augustinian Wrote:
(09-13-2019, 10:47 PM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(09-13-2019, 08:13 PM)Augustinian Wrote: The true Mass. As long as we have the true Mass, in its proper form (the consecration is key), then we still have the Church. If, for whatever reason, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass were to suddenly cease then the world would come to an end.

Don't the Orthodox have a valid Holy Eucharist though? The problem arises that, without a successor to St Peter, without an ultimate authority on Earth, who is to say what the True Mass is or is not? If Francis is legitimate then his teachings are binding, if he is not then his teachings are not binding, if his teachings are binding then the gates of hell have prevailed IMO which I know can never happen.

God Bless You

Valid, but not licit. Yes, it's most likely the body, blood, soul and divinity on the altar, but it's still an act outside of the Church and therefore does nothing towards salvation.

This ^. Sacraments offered outside the government of the Church are not pleasing to God, and I believe normally constitute grave sin.

As for the Holy Father: which teachings are you referring to?
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#57
(09-14-2019, 09:24 AM)FultonFan Wrote: As for the Holy Father: which teachings are you referring to?

IMO The Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI... nothing... Francis.... Laudato si and Amoris laetitia for starters, one all about man made climate change and the other undermining the indissolubility of marriage.

Other writings include Francis' first book 'Pope Francis – The Name of God Is Mercy' which includes a story about a Priest in confession where the so called penitent says "But father, I enjoyed it and I'm not sorry" then he recalls the Priest having a 'moment of inspiration' and says "But are you at least sorry that your not sorry?" and he replies "Yes father, I'm sorry that I'm not sorry" and then he says that this opened the door enough to be given absolution, which is outright heresy.

There are so many examples just off the top of my head. Like I said, if Francis had his way Clinton would be president of the USA right now and you would be getting persecuted, obviously things aren't bad enough yet. You wait until this Amazon Synod is through and then with the 2020 elections in the USA, it'll be more clearer for you then if it isn't already now IMO.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless You
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#58
The gates of Hell will not prevail, we all seem to agree that this refers to the visible, Roman Catholic Church.

The evidence is of this prophecy is right before us. When the Holy Father seems to suggest something false, the other faithful members of the Church Militant rise up and seek to correct the error. 

The Head of the Church is Christ, not the Pope. 

The Holy Spirit is with us. 

As many have said far better than I, we need to trustfully surrender the confusing situation to Divine Providence. It could very well be the case that God using this situation to show us that, no matter how bad things seem to get, He will always be with us.

In the meantime: prayer, prayer prayer. Penance, penance, penance. Charity, charity charity.
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#59
(09-14-2019, 09:38 AM)FultonFan Wrote: The gates of Hell will not prevail, we all seem to agree that this refers to the visible, Roman Catholic Church.

Yup.

(09-14-2019, 09:38 AM)FultonFan Wrote: The evidence is of this prophecy is right before us. When the Holy Father seems to suggest something false, the other faithful members of the Church Militant rise up and seek to correct the error. 

Like the Dubia? Gone unanswered for how long now? Are things getting better? Vigano is still in hiding and we have the Amazon Synod yet which does not look good at all.

(09-14-2019, 09:38 AM)FultonFan Wrote: The Head of the Church is Christ, not the Pope. 

Yes but the Pope is the highest authority on Earth, and if we can say "Don't listen to this Pope because he is in error" then what of all of the other Popes and future Popes? We are then just picking and choosing IMO. You might be at the stage where you think there may be a turn around, but I am at the point where there is only 1 alternative (Because I know the gates of hell can never prevail), which is that Francis was invalidly elected and Pope Benedict XVI is still Pope and or when recognized that Francis' election was rigged a new election needs to take place.

(09-14-2019, 09:38 AM)FultonFan Wrote: In the meantime: prayer, prayer prayer. Penance, penance, penance. Charity, charity charity.

x2

God Bless You
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#60
Is this enough?



John 14:6 Wrote:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Then we have -



Would the real Pope please stand up. If it's Francis then the gates of hell have prevailed IMO which I know can never happen therefore Francis cannot be legitimately Pope.

"For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless You
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