Schism and End Times Scenario
#81
MagisterMusicae,

Not to derail the thread, but seeing as we’re talking about schism, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on “The Nine” — and, to my understanding — other priests as well that defected from the SSPX.

Schism confuses me big time.

Apart from your reflections: a few questions:

1) What’s the situation with Reverend Father Donald Sanborn? Is he a valid bishop?
2) Also, what about Reverend Father Anthony Cekada? I understand he’s a valid priest. Perhaps you can simply comment on him in your discussing “the Nine”.
3) What about the other priests that defected, namely the SSPV, and other independent priests?

My main question is: to the best of our knowledge, how will God judge these men?
Clearly, they’re administering Sacraments outside of the Church. That is grave sin.

However, I can’t help but feel compassion towards these priests (and potential bishop; I really don’t know how to refer Reverend Father Sanborn). 

I can’t help but feel that at least some of these priests have a genuine love for souls, and are doing what’s right by their conscience, however misguided their actions may be.

Also, if they are sinning gravely, and, objectively speaking, potentially in mortal sin, I would think they’d be far less zealous for the salvation of souls.

I also have to feel a sense of respect for their commitment to orthodoxy.

I think they need to be prayed for all the more ardently by all of us.
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#82
(09-23-2019, 08:41 PM)FultonFan Wrote: I think they need to be prayed for all the more ardently by all of us.

I don't think men like Fr Cekada need our prayers nearly as much as any number of Bishops and Priests I could name who are 'in good standing' with the Church. :)
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#83
I don't think there's anything wrong with speculation provided one realizes it's just that: speculation. 

We have to be concerned for the spiritual and temporal welfare of both ourselves and our loved ones. How do we do that if not prepared and without considering what may be coming our way and preparing?
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#84
(09-23-2019, 05:28 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Firstly, when someone write a modern-style exposé or historical text he will quote sources which can be verified, so the claims and attibutions he makes can be double checked. Thus when the author may draw conclusions, these seem at least likely or reasonable. When such things are veiled in metaphor, without sources, clarity is lost and it becomes impossible to separate the fiction from the fact without comparison with an historical record.

Thus if you read a Louis de Wohl historical novel, you get a very good impression of historical realities in general, but certainly dialog and many aspects are creative and artistic interpretations. To understand what is historical fact and what is fictional one needs to read some non-fiction historical sources.

Some of Malachi Martin's books claim to be actual histories. Others are novels and claim to be fictional. Those later ought to be treated as recreational reading, not as metaphors for grand conspiracies.

Actually, all of that does make sense.

Quote:Socci is pushing the Benevacantist thesis. This thesis, as is described elsewhere (and where discussion of it is confined), has some major theological problems which have not been well-addressed.

I do not say that he is teaching error, but that these theological problems need to be solved before publishing a book promoting a thesis that contains them.

Thanks for the heads-up.
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#85
(09-12-2019, 09:40 PM)1Faith Wrote: It is absolutely true that our spiritual life is what really matters, and our lady called us to prayer and penance and of course to stay in the state of grace. That's always most important.

But I dont think its necessarily wrong to discern what's going on and read the signs of the times. Especially when various apparitions of our Lady, like our Lady of Good Success and La Salette, revealed things to the seers that are unfolding right before our eyes. It's good to know what's happening and where things are going, so that we can be ready. Were this not the case our Blessed Mother would not have given these revelations.

I readily admit everything I wrote is speculation and I dont claim it's the truth. Just trying to make sense out of the chaos that is the modern world.

At the end of the day though we ought to do what our Lady of Fatima told us; pray, do penance, sacrifice for sinners, pray the rosary every day, and make the five first Saturdays.

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Sometimes it's speculation like that that allows us to come to terms with the apparent contradictions between the teachings and actions of V2 popes and the hierarchy of the Conciliar Church and older teachings of the Magisterium. Looking at the relevant Scriptures and trying to understand the post-V2 madness in terms of Biblical and extra-Biblical prophecy can provide the balance necessary to get on with the important matter of our spiritual life in Christ. Same as coming to a conclusion that the See is vacant: it explains away contradictions, and where there are contradictions truth cannot reside, and where truth cannot reside, you cannot have spiritual life. 

I understand your speculations, appreciate them and am glad to see you pursue them with a firm grasp of the thing of ultimate importance: spiritual life in Christ and the state of grace.
"[T]hey receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11
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#86
(09-17-2019, 10:01 PM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: Now I'm not saying he's a heretic (and don't know what the protocol would be if he was),
 

I am, but of course if he was legitimately and validly elected, then I have no authority to judge a Pope, who is the highest authority on Earth.

(09-17-2019, 10:01 PM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: but the words and deeds of Pope Francis and others these days can be so alarming. However, it is the Will of God that he is Pope and God willing, he will hopefully yet live up to this admirably...but I highly doubt it.

If I believed he was legitimately Pope, then I would have no doubt that the gates of hell would have prevailed, hes a heretic through and through, I don't know what more it will take for people to see it?

Wait until the 2020 elections in the USA, we're going to see some very revealing things IMO.

See the latest - https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-f...-in-africa

(09-17-2019, 10:01 PM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: In agreement as to an agenda rather than just erring (not that that isn't bad enough) and disgusted too, but none of it has been - or will be - taught as infallible dogma.

So what would he need to do for the 'gates of hell' to prevail? Where exactly is this line? because based on this we could ignore, resist and fight directly against St Pope John Paul II's efforts against communism and still be faithful Catholics?

(09-17-2019, 10:01 PM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: When all's said and done, whether it be in the temporal sphere with politicians, or more importantly in the spiritual sphere with clergy, we just have to endure and do the best we can in our own lives.

The following prophecy for me is becoming more and more clearer by the day, hits the nail on the head, not only was it written long before all this, but we also have the ridiculously scary coincidence that it was attributed to St Francis of Assisi of all the saints, we also have the fact that Wikileaks exposed the Democrats infiltrating and corrupting the Catholic Church with fake Catholic groups (A Catholic Spring, oh and these fake Catholic Groups who are named in Wikileaks, are head over heels in their praise and endorsement of Francis and everything he says and does), we also have the fact that they had practiced these revolutions with much success already in Ukraine with Poroshenko and the Middle East. I think it's extremely naive to 'trust' they have not done this with the Catholic Church.

We also have St Faustina who says that St Pope John Paul II would prepare the world for His final coming, then we have the prophetic words of Fulton J Sheen which match perfectly to Francis and what hes doing and pushing for.

Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi London: R. Washbourne, 1882, pp. 248-250 Wrote:Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.

The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.

Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.

There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.

Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

I'm going to pray for Pope Benedict XVI.

God Bless You
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#87
(09-22-2019, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: I'll stick with what I know will give me peace of soul no matter what happens, and help me stay in the state of grace : Divine Tradition and Scripture, and let the good Lord do what he will.

How can one follow what Francis says and does, believe he is the Pope (Highest authority on Earth) and have any peace of soul? If I believed he was legitimately elected I would have no peace of soul, I would be saying the gates of hell have prevailed and why hast thou forsaken me.

(09-22-2019, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: I'd very much recommend you, for the sake of your own peace of soul stop wildly speculating and promoting everything you've worked out in your own head, and instead focus on what will count in the end : the degree to which your know your Faith and love God by doing your duty of state well every day.

But in order to do that, one must warn against the heresies of Francis and his Vatican, and if one believes he was legitimately elected Pope, then the Pope is the highest authority on Earth and we have no right to warn against him and tell people to ignore, resist or oppose his works, which of course we must do.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless You
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#88
(09-22-2019, 08:34 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: talking about aliens and angelic possession and all manner of dingbat stuff.

:O Aliens aren't real? lol :P

I'm not going down all kinds of rabbit holes into wild conspiracy theories though (and your right that is a danger we should be careful of), I think it takes much more wishful thinking and imagination to believe Francis was validly elected and that the gates of hell have not prevailed and we have not been forsaken. I think this will become more and more clear for you and others (if not already) as time goes on e.g. Amazon Synod and US 2020 elections etc.

I know you believe the prophecy of St Francis of Assisi is spurious, but like I said, the fact this was attributed so long ago to St Francis of Assisi of all the saints is a ridiculously scary coincidence, then we have St Faustina saying St Pope John Paul II will prepare the world for His final coming, then we have the prophetic words of Archbishop Fulton J Sheen which fit Francis' agenda perfectly.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless You
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#89
(09-29-2019, 10:11 AM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(09-22-2019, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: I'll stick with what I know will give me peace of soul no matter what happens, and help me stay in the state of grace : Divine Tradition and Scripture, and let the good Lord do what he will.

How can one follow what Francis says and does, believe he is the Pope (Highest authority on Earth) and have any peace of soul? If I believed he was legitimately elected I would have no peace of soul, I would be saying the gates of hell have prevailed and why hast thou forsaken me.


Simply don’t follow what Pope Francis says and does that is contradictory to established catholic teaching. Your peace of soul should come from your formation as a Catholic man, and all you have been taught.

Our lady of Fatima came to earth, manifested the greatest miracle known to modern times, and left a message for the faithful that stressed prayers for both the Holy Father and the conversion of Russia, and a coming chastisement if her requests are not followed. We are suffering a chastisement; poor shepherds are a consequence.   To say or feel that the gates of hell have prevailed because we have a duly elected bad shepherd is unsound.  We are soldiers in the battle of good vs evil. You have your weapons of spiritual warfare. Your rosary and sacramentals, Traditional prayer books, the teachings of good popes, and still many holy and faithful priests who are administering valid sacraments.  They recognize that Pope Francis is ambiguous in his teaching, and in error on many topics in his public comments. In good conscience and fidelity, they resist the errors. Whether it is the Dubia Cardinals, Archbishop Lefebvre, or the diocesan priests who offer the TLM and preach sound sermons on faith and morals.


A good and ordered spiritual life will supply the graces needed for peace of soul.  Archbishop Lefebvre, for example, even under sentence of excommunication as an elderly man, found peace of soul through his spiritual life until his last breath. It’s only going to get worse for all of us.
"Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."  Matthew 9:10-14
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#90
Quote:I am, but of course if he was legitimately and validly elected, then I have no authority to judge a Pope, who is the highest authority on Earth.
Its important we don't accuse anyone of being a heretic in the formal sense. Only God knows the internal life and whether or not a man is a formal heretic. The most we can say is "statement x is heretical". So I can say Francis's statement that (yes this is real) that our Lord would have had to beg forgiveness of his mother for having stayed behind in the temple of Jerusalem, is a heretical statement. That is plain heresy. Yet I cannot thereby say that Francis IS a heretic. That judgement belongs to God alone. We cannot judge the Pope but we can judge whether a statement is objectively heretical. And again, to be clear, I'm on the fence as regards the validity of this papacy.

Quote:I'm going to pray for Pope Benedict XVI.
You cannot be CERTAIN that Benedict is Pope. There are good arguments to that end, but we cannot say with certainty that is the case, nor can we say with certainty that Francis is not the Pope. We are in a position similar to that of the Great Western Schism. The much safer course would be to simply pray "for the Holy Father" without using a particular name. That way our prayers will be applied to the one who is in fact the Pope. I'd hate to find out I was wrong and Francis was the Pope, while having never prayed for him. That would be a bad condition to find oneself in indeed.

Quote:How can one follow what Francis says and does, believe he is the Pope (Highest authority on Earth) and have any peace of soul?
No Catholic must believe everything the Pope says or approve of everything the Pope does. When Pope John XXII said the just souls do not attain to the Beautific vision until the resurrection at the end of the world, he was in error and material heresy. No Catholic was in anyway obligated to believe this teaching. Likewise when Francis says that no one can be condemned forever, and that eternal condemnation is contrary to the gospel, this is material heresy and none of us are obliged to believe it. We are to render, not the assent of faith, but a religious submission of mind, to the ordinary magisterium of the Pope. But the ordinary magisterium is only validly magisterial when it does not contradict prior magisterium. If it does, it is not authentic teaching, and is not to be assented to, because to willfully do so would be to sin against faith. Vatican 1 clearly set out the conditions of infallibility, and Francis (or any conciliar Pope) has never invoked the extraordinary magisterium. Even Vatican 2 didn't invoke the extraordinary magisterium! There is no theological reason to assume that a Pope can never be a material heretic, it has actually happened before, with John XXII among others. Whether a Pope can be a formal heretic is a much more complex question, but again, we cannot judge that, because only God can judge the interior life of another.

Quote:and we have no right to warn against him and tell people to ignore, resist or oppose his works, which of course we must do.
Wrong, see above. No authority on the Earth is higher than the truth, and error has no rights.

All of that being said, Francis may well be an anti-pope, and Benedict may have covertly retained the papacy by invalidly bifurcating the office, in an attempt to prevent the gates of Hell from prevailing against the Church, as Antonio Socci posits. Seeing that his life was in danger, and that the partisans of Satan would immediately elect their man, Benedict may well have tendered an invalid resignation through a canonically void bifurcation of the office in order to carry on as Pope in prayer and penance imploring the mercy of God for the preservation of Holy Church. In this way the minions of the devil would THINK they succeeded in seizing the papacy, while in reality the did not. That's all possible. But its also possible that Socci is dead wrong, and Francis is a valid though terrible Pope. Either way we ought to pray and advance in holiness and trust that the Lord will sort this mess out in time.
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