Should I give up trying to change my local parish?
#11
Quote:To a degree, there needs to be a "reverse infiltration" of Traditional Catholics into NO Parishes
Yeah, I don't know about everyone else, but I personally don't even think I could stomach it. For a while there I was going to a local N.O. parish, a mere 3 blocks from my apartment, for daily mass. I go to an ICKSP parish most of the time, but their daily mass is at 8am, and my work schedule makes attendance impossible for me. The N.O. parish, however, has daily mass at noon. Also this particular N.O. parish is a "reverent" N.O. by most standards, with no EMHC's, it has an alter rail, a front-and-center tabernacle, is a beautiful church, and the preists are basically JP2 conservatives who definitely believe in the real presence and the mass as a sacrifice. A lot of people would be thrilled to have a parish like that. I couldn't stand it...the whole facing the people with the preist's back to the tabernacle, the egregious "sign of peace" between the laity in the pews, the lay people up and moving about past the alter rail, the terrible "third eucharistic prayer" and all the other N.O. trappings just made my stomach churn. No way would I want to go to any new mass ever again, i just can't stand it, its terrible. Encouraging traditional Catholics to go to the new mass is, in my opinion, not going to "convert" the N.O. crowd but is only going to hurt the faith of the traditional Catholics who go there. We're best off just staying away from the Novus Ordo entirely if possible, like I've said before.

Quote:Eventually the growth of Traditional parishes will stall out unless more proactive tactics are used.
I don't think so. Traditional parishes are the only parishes that are growing at all! The parish the Institute of Christ the King took over here in Detroit had a Sunday attendance of maybe 30 people before the Institute came. Since then our Sunday attendance is over 500! From what I know this seems to be the case literally everywhere. No one wants happy-clappy 1960's baby-boomer irreverent liturgy that clouds and obscures the Catholic faith. Catholics who actually have the faith generally want solemn, reverent liturgy. The movement is growing, and will inevitably continue to grow, until the Devil's minions in Rome try to suppress it again.

Quote:Many NO priests are steamrolled by the parish women
Yeah, I think a whole lot of problems could be solved by abolishing "parish councils" and outlawing liturgical roles for women. The women I see in my parish, those are models of true and Godly femininity, not the women who want to run around doing liturgy and trying to control everything. Priests need to stand up and tell these women "NO!" and stop caving under pressure, period.
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#12
(10-15-2019, 10:41 PM)LionHippo Wrote: To a degree, there needs to be a "reverse infiltration" of Traditional Catholics into NO Parishes, or at least into the minds of NO Catholics, to grow the Traditional movement.  Taking a passive approach, waiting for others to "see the light" so to speak, can only go so far.  Eventually the growth of Traditional parishes will stall out unless more proactive tactics are used.

Either Traditionalism is about a preference for something subjectively better, or it is about rejecting something objectively lacking in good (so evil) for what is objectively good.

The question comes down to the reasons for leaving the parish in the first place. Was it just abuses, or was it because it was so bad that one's Faith was threatened and so the only choice was to go to a place where it could be protected?

The risk of "going back" to try to "infiltrate" the parishes is that one then exposes himself to all of the rubbish there and if it were because there was something objectively evil, then that cannot be justified. If it were only because of a preference, then why did one leave in the first place.

I would argue that the approach of forming traditional chapels and not trying to "fix" the old parish is not a "passive" idea at all, unless in doing so one remains passive in his Catholic life. That is a problem in some traditionalist circles : Latin Mass and that's all, rather than Latin Mass which feeds into the need to be active doing all of the spiritual and charitable works demanded of this. That is passivity : a Church which is One, Holy, Catholic and Somnolent.

When one see traditional Catholic chapels doing Catholic Action, starting good schools, helping the needy, promoting Catholic Guides and Scouts, doing Pro-Life work, etc. they are attracted.

For example, a good friend of mine is a SSPX priest in New Zealand. A Catholic Pro-Life group put on a conference with John-Henry Westin (from LifeSite), and about 100 people attended. Half were from his chapel. He was one of two priests that showed up. The other was a visiting priest who was previously teaching in the local seminary and was shipped off to Rome after he helped a newly ordained priest learn and arrange the Traditional Mass. Even the FSSP and other diocesan priests who say the TLM did not show. The SSPX priest told me that several people at the conference after speaking with him and the SSPX faithful there began attending SSPX Masses because of that. Then the priory launched a Rosary Crusade against an abortion bill proposed, and that drew more people in. Of course, the Pro-Life group refused to promote it, but it drew in nearly 50,000 Rosaries and even many from Novus Ordo parishes that heard through the grapevine about it, as no bishop or diocesan priest would support it.

In the last year because of these efforts there was about a 10-20% increase in people at Mass each Sunday at his chapel. They built a new church about 6 years ago. If that growth stays steady, they will need to add on, or add another Mass within the next 2-3 years. On Good Friday the Church was so packed that people attended from outside.

Catholic Action and good examples that demonstrate the seriousness of people's Faith are what draws people into Tradition. People of good will see the good work of traditional Catholics doing well, and they are intrigued. They ask question, and instead of being beat up all the time about how evil this or that is, they get to see good Catholics taking their liturgical and prayer life seriously, and responding by making Catholic families and doing Catholic action. One doesn't have to "go back" or "infiltrate" to do this. In fact, that would undermine these efforts.

Add to this that traditionalists also are reproducing, and far more than those in the mainstream.

That's not passive, that's active.
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#13
It's disheartening that there is no way of tracking real specifics on traditionalist growth, attendance, etc. that I'm aware of.  There's a lot of spin around it in N.O. Catholic media.  Overall the numbers appear to be steadily growing.  From what I've seen of the SSPX data, I believe the only time there was ever a slowing of growth was during Pope Benedict's reign.  Apparently he was conservative enough to stem the bleeding to a certain degree.  However, with Francis, the numbers saw a sharp increase once again, and the growth hasn't stopped since.

Given how Francis has stacked the College, this is excellent news for the SSPX and other traditionalists.  Francis' liberal successor will undoubtedly encourage more to turn toward orthodox Catholicism.  This is all the more true given the concessions Francis has made to the SSPX in terms of supplied jurisdiction, undoubtedly assuaging more wary Catholics now that the "schism" issue is pretty much a dead talking point everywhere except for like, I dunno Church Militant?  Even Catholic Answers of all places has updated their stance on the SSPX to include Francis' Year of Mercy nod to the legitimacy of their confessions.  

The Church doesn't appear to have any interest in stopping the growth of traditionalism, even if they aren't encouraging it.  They have some time bombs in their back pocket for when we get unruly or outlive our usefulness, however.  Consider the SPLC page on "radical traditional Catholicism."  One day, if the Church hierarchy wants, we will all be labeled anti-Semites and slapped with the label of "Catholic Alt-Right."  The stigma around being a traditionalist will explode overnight and we will lose our jobs for simply being associated with the Latin Mass.  Mark my words this is the case.  James Martin has used that phrase, Catholic Alt-Right, before.  Liberals have a way of holding onto these sort of traps to spring when the time is right.  I believe we are all being protected, tentatively by the Vatican for the time being.  They aren't sure what they want to do with us just yet.

I guess my point with all of that is that the growth is great, and even if we grow rapidly, which we are, we're still a fairly insignificant minority compared to the size of the Catholic population at large.  To an extent this may be a good thing.  The average non-Catholic doesn't have any idea what a "traditionalist" even is.  There is a benefit in being in that position.  The moment there is widespread awareness of our existence is the moment the smears of anti-Semitism start, and you better believe that will hurt our numbers quickly.  And before you say something like "Well just don't be an anti-Semite," please realize that's not how left wing slanders actually work.
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#14
(10-16-2019, 01:02 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: The moment there is widespread awareness of our existence is the moment the smears of anti-Semitism start, and you better believe that will hurt our numbers quickly. 

Not if those Traditionalists are serious about their Catholic Faith. If they just became 'Trad' for the smells'n'bells, you're right.

I've been called an anti-semite, a fascist, and a nazi by leftists (and a socialist and a communist by my fellow Catholics because I adhere to the Papal Social Magisterium!). Hasn't changed my beliefs or my practises one bit.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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#15
Couldn't do it, lads.  I had a meeting set up and the priest canceled on me.  I was about to reschedule.  Then I reread an article he sent me about slowly introducing ad orientem into different aspects of prayer to gradually orient the liturgy to the east.  I sat there looking at it, then looking at the picture of that idol in the Traspontina Church.  Finally, I just sent the priest a picture of the idol, with all the pews turned to face it: "Look, it actually is pretty easy to change the orientation of the church after all!"

I no longer have the stomach for any of it.  Won't set foot in a N.O. parish ever again in my life.  Won't try to change it.  Won't acknowledge they even exist if I don't have to.  We've hit the "bridge too far" for me.
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#16
Quote:ICT  "Look, it actually is pretty easy to change the orientation of the church after all!"


Bwahahahaha!  Love it!  :heart:
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#17
(10-28-2019, 01:27 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: I no longer have the stomach for any of it.  Won't set foot in a N.O. parish ever again in my life.  Won't try to change it.  Won't acknowledge they even exist if I don't have to.  We've hit the "bridge too far" for me.

You and a lot of others. I was just on an SSPX FB page and one person noted that their Chapel had about 30 new faces Sunday morning.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
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#18
(10-28-2019, 01:27 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Couldn't do it, lads.  I had a meeting set up and the priest canceled on me.  I was about to reschedule.  Then I reread an article he sent me about slowly introducing ad orientem into different aspects of prayer to gradually orient the liturgy to the east.  I sat there looking at it, then looking at the picture of that idol in the Traspontina Church.  Finally, I just sent the priest a picture of the idol, with all the pews turned to face it: "Look, it actually is pretty easy to change the orientation of the church after all!"

I no longer have the stomach for any of it.  Won't set foot in a N.O. parish ever again in my life.  Won't try to change it.  Won't acknowledge they even exist if I don't have to.  We've hit the "bridge too far" for me.

 I hear you.  I'm done trying to change this train wreck too. 

But my whole diocese has exterminated the TLM literally.  And it looks like they won't bring it back.  We lost the battle of moving tabernacles back front and center, and of removing heterodox music.  

Do you have a link to pews facing pachamama?
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#19
(10-28-2019, 07:05 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: Do you have a link to pews facing pachamama?

Not one that I can post without it disappearing from the forum mysteriously in a couple days, but at the bottom of this page you can see Vox's twitter feed.  It's about 2 posts down.
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#20
(10-28-2019, 10:20 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(10-28-2019, 07:05 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: Do you have a link to pews facing pachamama?

Not one that I can post without it disappearing from the forum mysteriously in a couple days, but at the bottom of this page you can see Vox's twitter feed.  It's about 2 posts down.

[Image: pacha.jpeg]
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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