If They Strike Summorum Pontificum..
#21
(10-22-2019, 07:27 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-22-2019, 07:15 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Francis has been more generous to tradition and the Latin mass than JPII and Benedict combined. Remember his concessions to SSPX?

And how many Traditional or 'Tradition leaning' Orders has he destroyed? FFI anyone? I don't recall either of them approving the destruction of an Order for 'praying too much' as he did to an Order of nuns in France.

Yeah I was just being incendiary on purpose to see what the response was. The FFI stuff was criminal, as was what Frank did to the Knights of Malta.

But uh, why don't the FFI just align themselves with the SSPX for instance? Like, at the end of the day nothing the pope does matters if you don't care about his approval. 

And if the response is that they really do just genuinely believe in the virtue in perfect obedience to the pontiff no matter what he says or does, then I guess they got what they wanted.

I find this stuff infuriating but it's hard to sustain that anger over time when the answer is simply to not care. By rolling over they are enabling Francis' behavior further as well. If some of these orders actually fought back or aligned themselves with the SSPX for instance, we might see some real change.
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#22
I think they got us right where they want us: an innocuous sideshow.
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#23
(10-23-2019, 09:59 AM)Florus Wrote: I think they got us right where they want us: an innocuous sideshow.

I've posted before that I feel that's not necessarily a bad thing for now. Once trads grow large enough the anti Semitic slanders start, assuming the Vatican can't find a way to turn a profit on it.

You can bet James Martin will be front and center with the hand wringing about traditionalist hate mongering.
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#24
It would be stupid on his part. Right now Trads are kind of their own thing. Most trads are off in their segregated part of the world whether it's one of the traditional orders, SSPX, or a diocesan parish somewhere. Even in diocesan parishes, the TLM community tends to be segregated from the NO even if it's the same priest(s) offering both masses. If you get rid of the current status quo, Trads would be scattered all over. You'd have some going NO because they have no choice, some going to FSSP/ICKSP (if they still exist), others going to SSPX, others going sede and others even going EO. You'd have those going into the NOs just creating "issues" because there will be at least a few very outspoken ones who will try to change the parish and make it more traditional. It would be a headache for their current order of things. 

It's actually easier to control Trads by allowing SP to stay around and keeping them in their ghettos. While the traditionalist movement has been growing over time, it doesn't grow fast enough for it to make waves besides a few blips here and there in Francis' vision. If the Trad movement grew to the point where even 25% of parishes had a TLM, then I could see it becoming a thorn on his side, but as it is? Latin Mass Directory shows about 550 TLMs in the US, of which 365 offer weekly Mass. Pew Research tells me that there are 17,000 parishes in the US. Therefore about 2% of parishes offer weekly TLM... and I assure you many are not packed to the brim with people. Additionally, looking around the world, the US followed by France seem to be the leaders in TLMs. I'd imagine at a worldwide level, parishes that offer weekly TLMs are less than 0.5%. So why should Francis want to rustle the features of the Trads by getting rid of SP? It's not worth it for him.
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#25
(10-23-2019, 10:34 AM)GangGreen Wrote: It would be stupid on his part. Right now Trads are kind of their own thing. Most trads are off in their segregated part of the world whether it's one of the traditional orders, SSPX, or a diocesan parish somewhere. Even in diocesan parishes, the TLM community tends to be segregated from the NO even if it's the same priest(s) offering both masses. If you get rid of the current status quo, Trads would be scattered all over. You'd have some going NO because they have no choice, some going to FSSP/ICKSP (if they still exist), others going to SSPX, others going sede and others even going EO. You'd have those going into the NOs just creating "issues" because there will be at least a few very outspoken ones who will try to change the parish and make it more traditional. It would be a headache for their current order of things. 

It's actually easier to control Trads by allowing SP to stay around and keeping them in their ghettos. While the traditionalist movement has been growing over time, it doesn't grow fast enough for it to make waves besides a few blips here and there in Francis' vision. If the Trad movement grew to the point where even 25% of parishes had a TLM, then I could see it becoming a thorn on his side, but as it is? Latin Mass Directory shows about 550 TLMs in the US, of which 365 offer weekly Mass. Pew Research tells me that there are 17,000 parishes in the US. Therefore about 2% of parishes offer weekly TLM... and I assure you many are not packed to the brim with people. Additionally, looking around the world, the US followed by France seem to be the leaders in TLMs. I'd imagine at a worldwide level, parishes that offer weekly TLMs are less than 0.5%. So why should Francis want to rustle the features of the Trads by getting rid of SP? It's not worth it for him.

Especially because they want to take a watch and wait approach to determine how they can use trads to their advantage (financially). FSSP appears to be an excellent tool for renovating formerly beautiful churches in ghetto areas that no one attends. Give the parish a 100 percent refund on donations as long as the money goes to renovations. Let them keep it or maybe kick them out one day and you've got yourself a nice little museum or rental space.
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#26
Summorum Pontificum: "You can't win, Holy Father. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
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#27
(10-23-2019, 09:59 AM)Florus Wrote: I think they got us right where they want us: an innocuous sideshow.
That's one of the critiques of traditionalism that's come up, that things like SP just allow for a ghetto to form with no real substance because at the end of the day you still have to accept the modern papacy and hierarchy along with the "reforms" of the late 20th century. 

By staying in communion with the modern hierarchy trads (outside the more logically consistent sede groups)  give implicit approval to both the errors of the post conciliar praxis and doctrine as well as the hierarchy.  

I guess to this sympathetic outsider it's the group's like SSPV and whatever Father Cekada belongs to that really take things to their logical conclusions and refuse to accept a second class ghetto status in the post conciliar church.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#28
Quote:at the end of the day you still have to accept the modern papacy and hierarchy along with the "reforms" of the late 20th century.
That's not entirely accurate; well, at least as regards the societies established under Ecclesia Dei. The FSSP was granted pontifical right under the condition of assent to the May 5 protocol signed by Archbishop Lefebvre, wherein they agree to keep "an open mind" and an "attitude of study" regarding those points of Vatican 2 they feel cannot be reconciled to tradition without great difficulty. They also agree to avoid polemics. This is very different than assenting to all the reforms and modernism of the Conciliar era.

I believe the Institute of Christ the King, with which I am most familiar, was granted pontifical right under a similar agreement. They are extremely traditional, not just in liturgy but in faith as well. In fact every one of their priests takes the Oath Against Modernism at ordination, and are ordained by Cardinal Burke. They go as far as celebrating the pre-1955 holy week, using the confeitior before communion, and never reading the scriptural texts in the vernacular. They also reference basically nothing whatsoever out of the Conciliar Church. I've only ever heard references to the Catechism of Trent, the writings of the saints, things like that. Attending a parish they run is like stepping back in time, as though Vatican 2 never happened. And they are in "full communion" with Rome!

So no, Rome's agreements with these societies is essentially a "don't address the giant elephant in the room" type of situation. These societies can continue teaching the true faith and celebrating the ancient mass, and just generally doing things as they were done pre-Vatican 2, in return for simply not openly or publicly critiquing Vatican 2 or the Conciliar Magisterium.

This is why I very much support both the Institute of Christ the King (and FSSP) and the SSPX. Where the ICK and the FSSP have to shut up about the errors, and simply teach the truth, the SSPX because of their "irregular status" can teach the truth and call out the errors. We need all of these societies to exist, and all of them, together, in their own respective ways, will help to keep the faith and the ancient Roman mass alive. Assuming of course the present occupant of the Vatican doesn't endeavor to destroy them all.

Quote:I guess to this sympathetic outsider it's the group's like SSPV and whatever Father Cekada belongs to that really take things to their logical conclusions
The absence of a sacred hierarchy is not a logical conclusion, it's actually heretical. No matter how heretical and apostate the hierarchy, in its majority, may be, its still the hierarchy. If there was no valid Pope, and no valid hierarchy, the Catholic Church would no longer be the Catholic Church. This is heretical because it is contrary to the defined dogma of the Indefectibility of the Church. Sedevacantism is not a "logical conclusion" it is nothing more than a false and heretical conclusion, as well-meaning as it may be. Archbishop Lefebvre recognized this and rightly forbid that position within the SSPX.

That being said, technically the SSPV does not officially endorse sedevacantism but treats it as an "open question". However I think its safe to say that most of their adherents are sedevacantists. Best to stay away from groups like that.
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#29
(10-23-2019, 07:19 PM)1Faith Wrote:
Quote:at the end of the day you still have to accept the modern papacy and hierarchy along with the "reforms" of the late 20th century.
That's not entirely accurate; well, at least as regards the societies established under Ecclesia Dei. The FSSP was granted pontifical right under the condition of assent to the May 5 protocol signed by Archbishop Lefebvre, wherein they agree to keep "an open mind" and an "attitude of study" regarding those points of Vatican 2 they feel cannot be reconciled to tradition without great difficulty. They also agree to avoid polemics. This is very different than assenting to all the reforms and modernism of the Conciliar era.

I believe the Institute of Christ the King, with which I am most familiar, was granted pontifical right under a similar agreement. They are extremely traditional, not just in liturgy but in faith as well. In fact every one of their priests takes the Oath Against Modernism at ordination, and are ordained by Cardinal Burke. They go as far as celebrating the pre-1955 holy week, using the confeitior before communion, and never reading the scriptural texts in the vernacular. They also reference basically nothing whatsoever out of the Conciliar Church. I've only ever heard references to the Catechism of Trent, the writings of the saints, things like that. Attending a parish they run is like stepping back in time, as though Vatican 2 never happened. And they are in "full communion" with Rome!

So no, Rome's agreements with these societies is essentially a "don't address the giant elephant in the room" type of situation. These societies can continue teaching the true faith and celebrating the ancient mass, and just generally doing things as they were done pre-Vatican 2, in return for simply not openly or publicly critiquing Vatican 2 or the Conciliar Magisterium.

This is why I very much support both the Institute of Christ the King (and FSSP) and the SSPX. Where the ICK and the FSSP have to shut up about the errors, and simply teach the truth, the SSPX because of their "irregular status" can teach the truth and call out the errors. We need all of these societies to exist, and all of them, together, in their own respective ways, will help to keep the faith and the ancient Roman mass alive. Assuming of course the present occupant of the Vatican doesn't endeavor to destroy them all.

Quote:I guess to this sympathetic outsider it's the group's like SSPV and whatever Father Cekada belongs to that really take things to their logical conclusions
The absence of a sacred hierarchy is not a logical conclusion, it's actually heretical. No matter how heretical and apostate the hierarchy, in its majority, may be, its still the hierarchy. If there was no valid Pope, and no valid hierarchy, the Catholic Church would no longer be the Catholic Church. This is heretical because it is contrary to the defined dogma of the Indefectibility of the Church. Sedevacantism is not a "logical conclusion" it is nothing more than a false and heretical conclusion, as well-meaning as it may be. Archbishop Lefebvre recognized this and rightly forbid that position within the SSPX.

That being said, technically the SSPV does not officially endorse sedevacantism but treats it as an "open question". However I think its safe to say that most of their adherents are sedevacantists. Best to stay away from groups like that.
I guess I was always more hardline, in that it's NOT just about being allowed to use certain rites and rituals, it's about the whole dogmatic and doctrinal package which at least in my opinion, the modern RCC in its hierarchy no longer holds. If the hierarchy is no longer Catholic in the pre Conciliar sense and the rites (Lex Orandi,Lex Credendi) no longer hold the content of the old faith (they don't in my opinion.) than to be under their authority seems schizophrenic.  
Why would anyone desire to be under their authority at all? 


Rome's "don't address the elephant in the room" thing is ridiculous, they have ZERO intention of discussing anything or allowing it. Rome has used Vatican II to completely rewrite and refashion almost every aspect of the Catholic Faith in its externals and enforced it with an iron fist. They can say VatII was simply "pastoral" (whatever that means! )but their actions show otherwise, that it was like Pol Pots "year zero", a new beginning.   The words of the hierarchy to the SSPX are meaningless "Romanitas", meant to get them to stand down and shut up or be officially condemned.  

Very heady and difficult stuff indeed.

Back to the original topic I don't think SP will be revoked, but only because to do so would give unwanted publicity to traditional Catholicism which this current Pope does not want at any cost.  Out of sight, out of mind.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#30
Quote:Why would anyone desire to be under their authority at all?
When Israel was in the midst of widespread apostasy God preserved a faithful remnant. Did this faithful remnant renounce Israel and go off and join the heathen, or start their own "new Israel" sect or anything like that? No. They practiced their faith, called out the errors for what they were, and implored the mercy of God to restore Israel. We are in a completely analogous situation today.

Quote:Rome has used Vatican II to completely rewrite and refashion almost every aspect of the Catholic Faith in its externals and enforced it with an iron fist.
True, but the Holy Spirit has been active even through all of this. The Holy Spirit prevented Vatican 2 from defining anything via the extraordinary magisterium, ensuring that Catholics were not bound to error. The Holy Spirit prevented Paul VI from formally and juridically abrogating Quo Primum, thereby ensuring the right of every Catholic priest to continue to celebrate the ancient Roman mass. The Holy Spirit inspired John Paul 2 to explicitly and infallibly condemn any possibility of female ordination. The Holy Spirit inspired Benedict XVI to issue Summorum Pontificum so that the traditional mass would become much more prevalent, just in time for the desolation of Francis. All the errors of Vatican 2 and the ensuring chaos that you refer to are, by the mercy of God, NOT binding on Catholics in any way shape or form. It's all a bunch of hot air that will be solemnly condemned in the future, when Christ restores his Church from the apostasy that currently runs rampant.
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