Pope calls the idea of Mary as Co-Redemptrix "foolishness"
#11
she came dressed as an Aztec princess, but he said her most important role was as disciple of Jesus. And this point of being seen as mestizo had made interested them?
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#12
(12-13-2019, 11:23 AM)Florus Wrote: I really hope this title never gets official recognition.
Here's a sermon on the title from one of my favorite preachers. I was initially wary of it, but I've since been convinced.

Edit: I should add, as St. Louis de Montfort said, you can never love Our Lady more than Christ Himself. So I wouldn't get too hung up on titles like these.

"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#13
It's like he's announcing the judgement to come.
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#14
Of course, it seems that to Francis the very idea of Catholicism is 'foolishness'.
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#15
While I'm not a Catholic and have no real skin in the game I've always been both leery of the whole "co- Redemptrix" idea but at the same time not willing to condemn it out of hand without hearing the arguments.  From an Eastern perspective the RC separation of Mary into her own branch of theology and piety seems a bit off to me, but I realize the average RC engaging in Marian devotion has no intention of separating her from Christ.

I guess aside from dabbling with the rosary here and there in my Catholic days I was always somewhat wary of focusing too much on Mary. Towards the end the only time I ever asked for her intercession was at the Marian antiphon at Compline in the Benedictine Office.  Even as an Orthodox I will only pray  the prayers in the prayerbook and divine services to to her, and those are almost never separated from Christ nor do they attempt to consider her a "co-redeemer" in any sense whatsoever.  

Even if this could be considered in an orthodox (for RC's) fashion,  don't you think in today's day and age where people are grossly uneducated in theological matters and either don't read or don't have the intellectual capacity or the discipline to study in depth this could be a PR nightmare and disaster of epic proportions? 

And why would the Theotokos want or even need a new dogma that,  at the outset seems to make her co- equal with the Second Person of the Trinity? The Virgin Mary is known from her self abasement and humility and points to Christ, not to any exalted status she might have. It seems wrong to me, and even IF one could (which I'm not saying it can)  be construed as legitimate why open that can of worms? 

Just because Francis is wary of it (and I applaud him for that)  doesn't mean it's a good thing to try to make it a dogma. 


Where is this supported anywhere in the early Church, or anywhere prior to the Latin Middle Ages? I want an exhaustive study that's not just out of context quotes from various saints and fathers but a study that takes into account the context of the various quotes.  Is there any such study or series of articles?  Scholastic treatises don't count,  I'm looking for preferably pre schism sources with contexts.  

Not trying to stir up trouble, I'm sincerely interested in why so many trads are so passionate for what at first glance appears to us outsiders as excessive and bizarre in the extreme.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#16
(12-14-2019, 08:08 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: doesn't mean it's a good thing to try to make it a dogma. 

It is a good and necessary thing if it's true.

Typology, Christ is the new Adam, well, it was not just Adam that caused the fall and brought death, it was Eve too, in fact Eve was the first to taste the fruit. Christ is the new Adam, and obviously we need a new Eve, which is Mary, Mary is the one who will crush the head of the serpent. Sacred Heart & Immaculate Heart, Jesus' Sacred Heart is crowned with thorns and pierced by a Lance, Mary's Immaculate Heart is also pierced, pierced by a Sword Luke 2:35.

Adam and Eve were born without original sin, Christ is the new Adam, Christ was born without original sin.... there is only one other born without original sin.... Our Blessed Mother Mary.

"In the end my Immaculate Heart will Triumph" - Our Lady of Fatima.

God Bless You
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#17
(12-13-2019, 04:35 PM)Paul Wrote:
(12-13-2019, 11:23 AM)Florus Wrote: I really hope this title never gets official recognition.

Why? Because it confuses Protestants?

Without her fiat, there's no Incarnation and no redemption. It was Adam's sin that caused the fall, but Eve helped by offering him the fruit. Mary is the new Eve.

Co- does not mean equal to. It means 'with'. The co-pilot doesn't have to do the actual flying in order to be co-pilot.

I couldn't care less what Protestants - or any other group - thinks of us or our dogma. Nor do I share the modern Orthodox critique that we "focus too much on Mary" or that veneration of the Mother God has to be liturgical. 

I'll just post what I said in another thread about this:

The redemption of man is solely the work of God, no one can share in this title. Christ offered himself on the cross, and it is his sacrifice alone which is the cause of our forgiveness and redemption.

I'm sure you could somehow twist the term co-redeemer to basically mean co-operator in redemption, but then the term is pretty much useless since we all co-operate with the grace of God to further the work of salvation.

And, at least in English, co does imply equality.
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#18
(12-14-2019, 08:54 AM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(12-14-2019, 08:08 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: doesn't mean it's a good thing to try to make it a dogma. 

It is a good and necessary thing if it's true.

Typology, Christ is the new Adam, well, it was not just Adam that caused the fall and brought death, it was Eve too, in fact Eve was the first to taste the fruit. Christ is the new Adam, and obviously we need a new Eve, which is Mary, Mary is the one who will crush the head of the serpent. Sacred Heart & Immaculate Heart, Jesus' Sacred Heart is crowned with thorns and pierced by a Lance, Mary's Immaculate Heart is also pierced, pierced by a Sword Luke 2:35.

Adam and Eve were born without original sin, Christ is the new Adam, Christ was born without original sin.... there is only one other born without original sin.... Our Blessed Mother Mary.

"In the end my Immaculate Heart will Triumph" - Our Lady of Fatima.

God Bless You
Adam and Eve being born without original sin has nothing to do with our redemption. Christ as the new Adam took on human nature as it was before the fall and thus became the "new Adam". Mary does not take on human nature to redeem it in the same way as Christ. Christ is God, Mary is not.  She cannot save or raise up man's fallen nature the way her Son can, even though his human nature was taken from her.  

The New Eve played her role already by her "fiat", she has no more role to play aside from interceeding for us to her Son from heaven. Certainly when Jesus said "apart from me you can do nothing" he also had his mother in mind.  Original sin or not Mary is still a creature, and there's an abyss of difference between a creature and the Creator and Redeemer. 

I guess I see it as putting Mary on a pedestal that is unwarranted, and as others have said "co" in English pretty much means "equality. 

Even for those RC's who don't care what Protestants or Orthodox think,  why put stumbling blocks in the way of reunion if that's ultimately what one wants?  To say Mary is a "co-redemptrix" would pretty much be like slamming the door on ANY possibility of reunion with traditional Orthodox or Protestants, not to mention there would end up being volumes upon volumes of ink spilled debating exactly what "co" means the same way there has been endless debate about "subsitit" as opposed to "est" in modern RC ecclesiology in light of Vatican II. 

No traditional Christian of East or West would deny Mary a place of very high honor as is evidenced by the various hymns, feasts and devotions,  but to raise her to the level of having some exalted role in man's redemption beyond what the holy scripture and tradition have already given her seems a bit much. 

Personally I don't see it ever being made into a dogma in the RCC unless by some chance there's some Franciscan trad pope that comes in and does it.

At any rate it's interesting.  Even über trads like the Dimonds are dead against it, so there must be a lot of division surrounding it even in tradland.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#19
(12-14-2019, 12:54 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Personally I don't see it ever being made into a dogma in the RCC unless by some chance there's some Franciscan trad pope that comes in and does it.

At any rate it's interesting.  Even über trads like the Dimonds are dead against it, so there must be a lot of division surrounding it even in tradland.

That's the beauty of it, it most likely never will be dogma. If you don't like the title, don't use it. I personally never use it, but don't mind it.

I will say though, appealing to the Dimond brothers does not help your argument.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#20
(12-14-2019, 12:21 PM)Florus Wrote: I'm sure you could somehow twist the term co-redeemer to basically mean co-operator in redemption, but then the term is pretty much useless since we all co-operate with the grace of God to further the work of salvation.

Not in the same way Mary did - without her, there is no Incarnation. That doesn't mean she redeemed us any more than Eve caused us to fall.


(12-14-2019, 12:21 PM)Florus Wrote: And, at least in English, co does imply equality.
 

Co-star? Co-pilot?
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