Christ, the Unjust Judge
#11
piscis Wrote:You clearly have not read even casually a single scholastic theology manual (Thomistic or any other, for those wondering!) on God's nature if you think this is the Latin tradition. Because let me give you the short answer: it's not.

Before going off on theological speculation based on false premises, make sure you've first checked the premises. Also it's best for our spiritual lives in general not to go off on speculations.

That's true, I haven't. But I'm getting it from what I have read over the years from multiple Latin users of this and other fora. So apparently, neither have they - even though they quoted Aquinas and other Latin theologians as backup for what they were saying.

But, if what you are saying is true, then I'm glad to know that the correct Latin and scholastic teaching is that Christ's mercy indeed exceeds his justice!
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#12
(05-26-2020, 02:23 PM)Melkite Wrote: That's true, I haven't.  But I'm getting it from what I have read over the years from multiple Latin users of this and other fora.  So apparently, neither have they - even though they quoted Aquinas and other Latin theologians as backup for what they were saying.

But, if what you are saying is true, then I'm glad to know that the correct Latin and scholastic teaching is that Christ's mercy indeed exceeds his justice!

No theology manual claims God's Mercy and Justice are the same thing, though this is a way of expressing a higher truth imperfectly (so rife with ambiguity).

God is Simple—i.e. He is not composed of parts—because He is a Spirit. In something which is not composed of parts, one cannot really distinguish any part. The only real relations which exist in God are those necessary to distinguish the three Persons. All other distinctions in God are logical.

His Mercy, Justice, Wisdom, Providence, Will and any other "part" is indistinguishable in God, but we make a distinction in the effect as we perceive it.

Thus, we say the pardon of a sinner is God's Mercy, with the punishment of the wicked is His Justice, but in fact in God there is no real distinction between these. We distinguish only in the effect as seen by us.

Thus it is a non-statement to say that any part or aspect in God exceeds another part of aspect if there are no parts and no real distinction between parts. It would be the equivalent of suggesting that the part of our soul in our little finger exceeds the part of our soul in our earlobe. We can think about these "parts" (the soul also is simple), as extended into space in the mind, but in reality these two "parts" are not really distinguished.

Or to use a non-theological example, that the soil in the riverbed of the Mississippi River in Minnesota is more American than the rocks in the riverbead of the same river in Illinois.

I do understand that people may then not understanding the principles underneath, make statements like saying that God's Justice and Mercy are the same thing. It's a simple, but highly imperfect way of putting it, because while in God there is no such real distinction, they are not quoad nos.
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#13
Melkite; were you inspired by the blog eclecticorthodoxy?
I remember reading it,the priest there talks about the same subjects as you.
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#14
(05-26-2020, 04:27 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-26-2020, 02:23 PM)Melkite Wrote: That's true, I haven't.  But I'm getting it from what I have read over the years from multiple Latin users of this and other fora.  So apparently, neither have they - even though they quoted Aquinas and other Latin theologians as backup for what they were saying.

But, if what you are saying is true, then I'm glad to know that the correct Latin and scholastic teaching is that Christ's mercy indeed exceeds his justice!

No theology manual claims God's Mercy and Justice are the same thing, though this is a way of expressing a higher truth imperfectly (so rife with ambiguity).

God is Simple—i.e. He is not composed of parts—because He is a Spirit. In something which is not composed of parts, one cannot really distinguish any part. The only real relations which exist in God are those necessary to distinguish the three Persons. All other distinctions in God are logical.

His Mercy, Justice, Wisdom, Providence, Will and any other "part" is indistinguishable in God, but we make a distinction in the effect as we perceive it.

Thus, we say the pardon of a sinner is God's Mercy, with the punishment of the wicked is His Justice, but in fact in God there is no real distinction between these. We distinguish only in the effect as seen by us.

Thus it is a non-statement to say that any part or aspect in God exceeds another part of aspect if there are no parts and no real distinction between parts. It would be the equivalent of suggesting that the part of our soul in our little finger exceeds the part of our soul in our earlobe. We can think about these "parts" (the soul also is simple), as extended into space in the mind, but in reality these two "parts" are not really distinguished.

Or to use a non-theological example, that the soil in the riverbed of the Mississippi River in Minnesota is more American than the rocks in the riverbead of the same river in Illinois.

I do understand that people may then not understanding the principles underneath, make statements like saying that God's Justice and Mercy are the same thing. It's a simple, but highly imperfect way of putting it, because while in God there is no such real distinction, they are not quoad nos.


If God is simple, how can he be a trinity?  Is there anything in public revelation that demands divine simplicity?  Or is this something theologians have declared a theological certainty based on their philosophising?
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#15
(05-26-2020, 04:32 PM)xsantiagox Wrote: Melkite; were you inspired by the blog eclecticorthodoxy?
I remember reading it,the priest there talks about the same subjects as you.

No, sorry.  I don't know what eclecticorthodoxy is.  It's based on my own rumination and trying to process the suffering in my own life.
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#16
(05-26-2020, 04:44 PM)Melkite Wrote: If God is simple, how can he be a trinity?

Three Persons in One Divinity does not undermine the notion of the Simplicity of God, because it is a distinction of relation and not of quantity.

Each Person is fully God, not part of God. So there is no problem with Divine Simplicity and a Trinity of Persons.

(05-26-2020, 04:44 PM)Melkite Wrote: Is there anything in public revelation that demands divine simplicity?  Or is this something theologians have declared a theological certainty based on their philosophising?

Strictly speaking, it is from philosophical reasoning and also taught by the Fathers, particularly St Augustine, but while not directly stated, allusions in Scripture, clearly lead to this conclusion, seeing as when God's attributes are named, none are ever placed above any other.

For instance :
  • "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." (Dt 6.4), which is repeated by Christ (Mk 12.29).
  • "'God is a spirit'" (Jn 4.24)
  • "God is faithful" (1 Cor. 1.9)
  • "God is Light and in Him there is no darkness" (1 Jn 1.5)
  • "God is Charity" (1 Jn 4.8)
If you look at the contexts of those attributes, never is this attribute of God ever compared with another attribute or contrasted with it as if one is greater or lesser. God's attributes are often compared with those of man.

Key here is Christ saying that "God is a spirit" because we know that spiritual things are simple. That is the more direct proof from revelation for Divine Simplicity.

St Augustine says in De Trinitate (iv : 6, 7): "God is truly and absolutely simple."

So, based in philosophy, supported by statements from the Fathers, and we have no comparison or division in scripture between attributes of God in Himself, which certainly supports this philosophical notion, and Christ seems to teach it indirectly by saying that "God is a spirit."
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#17
MagisterMusicae Wrote:Key here is Christ saying that "God is a spirit" because we know that spiritual things are simple. That is the more direct proof from revelation for Divine Simplicity.


How do we know for certain that spiritual things are simple?
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#18
God is both Just and Merciful. This is not a contradiction. Just goes hand in hand with Mercy, and it is our miserable intellects which fail to comprehend their perfection.
:monstrance:Deo Gratias et Ave Maria! :monstrance:
Pray the Rosary

A Dieu mon ame,
Mon arme au roi,
Mon Coeur a la dame,
Mon honneur a moi!
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#19
(05-26-2020, 12:33 PM)Melkite Wrote: His mercy far exceeds his justice, evidenced by his even making salvation possible for us.

Where were you with the Divine Mercy threads? :) One of the criticism's they raised was that Christ told St Faustina that His greatest attribute was mercy, and apparently some had a problem with that.

(05-26-2020, 01:24 PM)Augustinian Wrote: The title for this thread is blasphemy.

Not after having read it, because it's not meant in such a way, indeed from man's perspective it does look like injustice, was it just for God's only son, innocent though He was, to be crucified for our sins? And then St Peter and the rest of the disciples except for St John to then be crucified and killed too?

This is not to discount justice, because God is perfectly just, but His greatest attribute is indeed mercy.

Jesus to St Faustina Wrote:before I come as a just Judge, I first open wide the door of My mercy. He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice... (Diary, 1146)

When we suffer in life, we suffer for our own sins and we suffer for the sins of others as Christ did for us, to become co-redeemers with Christ when offered up to Christ.

God Bless You
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#20
(05-26-2020, 06:35 PM)Melkite Wrote: How do we know for certain that spiritual things are simple?

Matthew 11:25
25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes;

Matthew 18:3-4
3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

God Bless You
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