Primacy of conscience and following the Pope
#11
Not much to add.
The whole situation is a mess.
Seems a current, common mentality is “meeting people where they are”.
E.g if they’re cohabiting, don’t nag them about the grave danger, but rather just accommodate them — which is obviously gravely scandalous.
It’s best you stick to reading Sacred Scripture, the Catechism(s) of the Catholic Church, and the Lives of the Saints.
A great Missal will help too; I particularly love St. Andrew’s Daily Missal.
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#12
(06-05-2020, 10:41 AM)FultonFan Wrote: Not much to add.
The whole situation is a mess.
Seems a current, common mentality is “meeting people where they are”.
E.g if they’re cohabiting, don’t nag them about the grave danger, but rather just accommodate them — which is obviously gravely scandalous.
It’s best you stick to reading Sacred Scripture, the Catechism(s) of the Catholic Church, and the Lives of the Saints.
A great Missal will help too; I particularly love St. Andrew’s Daily Missal.

This pretty much sums up the new direction Rome took from VII on. Sacrifice confronting error for the sake of misguided compassion.

One thing I would add is study the Roman Cathechism and/or My Catholic Faith as opposed to the current CCC. It's safer ground.
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#13
I have been taught in Catholic Schools (perVatII) that we must ultimately follow our conscience. In these times, when up is down and sideways is preferred, when we are subjected to a Mason 'pope Frank', I follow mine and here is a good reference from the Catechism (1994) I have at hand as to why I do:

1776 (interesting number, no?) Wrote:Article 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE

"Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment...For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God...His consciece is man's most sacred core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths." 47

47: GS; Gaudium et spes (542)
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

All War is Deception
Gen. Sun

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
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#14
(06-05-2020, 04:13 PM)Zedta Wrote: I have been taught in Catholic Schools (perVatII) that we must ultimately follow our conscience. In these times, when up is down and sideways is preferred, when we are subjected to a Mason 'pope Frank', I follow mine and here is a good reference from the Catechism (1994) I have at hand as to why I do:

1776 (interesting number, no?) Wrote:Article 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE

"Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment...For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God...His consciece is man's most sacred core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths." 47

47: GS; Gaudium et spes (542)

My understanding is that our conscience must be properly formed, i.e. according to the teachings of the Catholic Faith.  The problem in the present-day is that after decades of lukewarm, watered down teaching, many Catholics no longer have a properly formed conscience.  Can you imagine if someone like Fr. James Martin had overseen your catechesis?
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#15
(06-05-2020, 04:22 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 04:13 PM)Zedta Wrote: I have been taught in Catholic Schools (perVatII) that we must ultimately follow our conscience. In these times, when up is down and sideways is preferred, when we are subjected to a Mason 'pope Frank', I follow mine and here is a good reference from the Catechism (1994) I have at hand as to why I do:

1776 (interesting number, no?) Wrote:Article 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE

"Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment...For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God...His consciece is man's most sacred core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths." 47

47: GS; Gaudium et spes (542)

My understanding is that our conscience must be properly formed, i.e. according to the teachings of the Catholic Faith.  The problem in the present-day is that after decades of lukewarm, watered down teaching, many Catholics no longer have a properly formed conscience.  Can you imagine if someone like Fr. James Martin had overseen your catechesis?
Yes, thankfully, he did not. 

I had the Sisters of Charity and Providence to lead me into my faith, and later, in High School, less traditional, sadly, Sisters of The Blessed Virgin Mary, during the trans-formative post VatII debauchery which too many of whom, gleefully embraced.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

All War is Deception
Gen. Sun

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
Reply
#16
(06-05-2020, 04:44 PM)Zedta Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 04:22 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(06-05-2020, 04:13 PM)Zedta Wrote: I have been taught in Catholic Schools (perVatII) that we must ultimately follow our conscience. In these times, when up is down and sideways is preferred, when we are subjected to a Mason 'pope Frank', I follow mine and here is a good reference from the Catechism (1994) I have at hand as to why I do:

1776 (interesting number, no?) Wrote:Article 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE

"Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment...For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God...His consciece is man's most sacred core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths." 47

47: GS; Gaudium et spes (542)

My understanding is that our conscience must be properly formed, i.e. according to the teachings of the Catholic Faith.  The problem in the present-day is that after decades of lukewarm, watered down teaching, many Catholics no longer have a properly formed conscience.  Can you imagine if someone like Fr. James Martin had overseen your catechesis?
Yes, thankfully, he did not. 

I had the Sisters of Charity and Providence to lead me into my faith, and later, in High School, less traditional, sadly, Sisters of The Blessed Virgin Mary, during the trans-formative post VatII debauchery which too many of whom, gleefully embraced.

I've heard horror stories from the time period, like priests dressed as clowns at Mass.  One might think, since you only see clowns at the circus performing a job that requires them to get people to laugh at them and not take them seriously, that dressing up as a clown is to be avoided by anyone who wants to be taken seriously.  But not if you're a modernist priest who thinks VII is your new super-weapon to use against the Faith.  It is no wonder we're in this predicament and how many have left the Faith.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#17
(06-05-2020, 04:59 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: I've heard horror stories from the time period, like priests dressed as clowns at Mass.  One might think, since you only see clowns at the circus performing a job that requires them to get people to laugh at them and not take them seriously, that dressing up as a clown is to be avoided by anyone who wants to be taken seriously.  But not if you're a modernist priest who thinks VII is your new super-weapon to use against the Faith.  It is no wonder we're in this predicament and how many have left the Faith.
Yes, there were many abuses coming in quickly after VatII in the world generally and particularly in the Los Angeles area, especially after Cardinal Mahoney took over the Archdiocese. My sister went to a "Mass" he presided over, where the stench of Marijuana was thick at the time of the "Consecration". It was certainly, more carnival than worship of God that day.

I fell away from the Church soon afterwards. The turmoil of the nuns in regular cloths, the devastation of the Sacristy and Order of the Mass laid waste to many people's faith. mine included. When I moved to Florida, I tried to get back into the faith and my effort was in vain. I went to a Benedictine run College and sought out a 'good' Benedictine Monk for confession. That was a disaster too, he was anything but Traditional and it set me back farther.

It wasn't until my son was born that my journey back to the Church got going. I met a Marist, Irish priest, Fr. Harte (who became Monsignor and who recently passed away), that was organizing the building of Our Lady Queen of the Universe Shrine (now a Basilica) in Orlando.

I have been much stronger in my faith since meeting him and making him my confessor. I will sorely miss him!
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

All War is Deception
Gen. Sun

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
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#18
I've returned to the book the Occult Renaissance Church of Rome lately, and the thesis of the book is that the current issues we've seen arise from Vatican II have been merely the public unveiling of a serious parasitical occultism that has been present in the hierarchy since the Renaissance. Mind you, the author, Michael Hoffman II, is a practicing and faithful Catholic, he's not a sedevacantist or part of some pseudo-Catholic sect. But he does propose an interesting thesis behind why things have gotten as bad as they are, and how these issues have been hidden from view since the Renaissance.

Regarding the infighting over the papacy, I have this excerpt to share (take it as you will):

Quote:The usury, magic and paganism which captured the Vatican in the era under examination [the Renaissance] is vigorously denied by true believers who simply will not allow themselves to countenance it. They choose delusion over truth and call themselves followers of the world's greatest truth teller. This bipolar mentality is of enormous utility to the dark forces under study. "Traditional" Catholic Bishop Richard Williamson wrote in his column, Eleison Comments, of April 5, 2014, titled "Canonizations Unreal":

"The 'canonization' if two Conciliar Popes, John XXIII and John-Paul II, is scheduled for the last Sunday of this month, and many believing Catholics are scared stiff. They know that the Conciliar popes have been (objective) destroyers of the Church. They know that the Church holds canonizations to be infallible. Are they going to be forced to believe that John XXIII and John-Paul II are Saints? It boggles the mind. The Archbishop (Marcel Lefebvre) said that like the mass of modern men, the Conciliar Popes do not believe in any truth being stable. For instance John-Paul II's formation was based on truth evolving, moving with the times, progressing with the advance of science, etc. Truth never being fixed is the reason why in 1988 John-Paul II condemned the SSPX (Society of St. Pius X) Episcopal Consecrations, because they sprang from a fixed and not living or moving idea of Catholic Tradition. For indeed Catholics hold, for example, every word in the Credo to be unchangeable, because the words have been hammered out over the ages to express as perfectly as possible the unchanging truths of the Faith, and these words have been infallibly defined by the Church's popes and Councils."
Nevertheless, "The vigilance and the pastoral solicitude of the Roman Pontiff...according to the duties of his office, are principally and above all manifested in maintaining and conversing the unity and integrity of the Catholic faith, without which it is impossible to please God..."

The "traditional" Catholic writer dares to use his conscience and private judgment to disclaim the judgment of the Apostolic See which is to be disclaimed by no one. Nor can it be judged.

"Traditional" Catholics quote Vatican Council I and omit a key sentence from its decree. Here it is: "...the See of St. Peter always remains unimpaired by any error..." We know of "traditional" Catholics who revel in this astonishing, "infallible" statement and at one time quoted it often, but now, not quite as often. The late twentieth and twenty-first century popes view these "traditional" and "conservative" Catholics as ignoramuses sadly in need of initiation into the hidden verities of the Church, as understood by the pontiff and the hierarchy, in all secrecy.

Imagine what an inside joke it must be in Rome when the "traditional" Catholics come calling and boldly declare that, when it comes to Judaism, they want the Church returned to the way it was before Vatican II. "Guys," the cardinals and clerics are thinking, "what you wish for is now, and has been, for five long centuries. The only difference being that we went public with it in 1965."

The Second Vatican Council was the culmination of Renaissance popery. The gnosis of Renaissance popes is reflected in the theology and actions of modern Popes Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis. The Roman Church in the Renaissance did not have a "vacant see." All of the pontiffs who reigned (with the exception of the Avignon interregnum), were incontrovertibly popes and some of those popes approved the overthrow of Catholic dogma that had been held by all the Church since the first century A.D. The others who did not overthrow it condoned the revolution by the fact that they did not restore the dogma. Those popes were not just material heretics, they were formal ones.

The "Conservative" and "traditional Catholic" movement as now constituted is doomed to failure because the post-Renaissance popes of Rome and their hierarchies will not be taught doctrine and history by "traditionalist" cowans, dupes and goyim. The post-Renaissance popes and their hierarchies possess the key to a mystery of history which the "traditional" Catholics do not: the "traditional Catholic" papacy and its administrative organs and instruments radically departed from the dogma of the Church, beginning around the last decades of the fifteenth century. The magisterial dogmas that were tossed away were never restored. For five hundred years the three Traditions of the Renaissance Church of Rome have been: 1. Judaism and the occult; 2. Lying and deceit; and 3. The root of evil itself--the legalization of the love of money. [usury] 
When "traditional" Catholics appeal for a restoration of tradition, what can be the reaction of the contemporary Vatican's bishops, cardinals and pope, other than mirth and mockery? If one desires 500 years of Catholic tradition, then look to the Second Vatican Council and you will find the culmination of five hundred years of Renaissance occult Catholic tradition, contrasted with fifteen hundred years of Catholic Truth as taught by Jesus, the Apostles, the Fathers of the Early Church and most of the theologians of the Middle Ages.

-the Occult Renaissance Church of Rome by Michael Hoffman, pp. 43-46.


It's certainly plausible, and, from a providential standpoint, would explain why Our Lady warned us of the corruption of the Church as early as the 16th century through Our Lady of Good Success. Perhaps due to the deep-seated, irreversible corruption of the Church is why the next chastisement will be so severe.


I offer this merely as an alternative perspective outside of the typical rallying-points of simple Masonry, Communism, and Globalism we see in trad circles.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#19
(06-07-2020, 11:48 AM)Augustinian Wrote: I've returned to the book the Occult Renaissance Church of Rome lately, and the thesis of the book is that the current issues we've seen arise from Vatican II have been merely the public unveiling of a serious parasitical occultism that has been present in the hierarchy since the Renaissance. Mind you, the author, Michael Hoffman II, is a practicing and faithful Catholic, he's not a sedevacantist or part of some pseudo-Catholic sect. But he does propose an interesting thesis behind why things have gotten as bad as they are, and how these issues have been hidden from view since the Renaissance.

Regarding the infighting over the papacy, I have this excerpt to share (take it as you will):

Quote:The usury, magic and paganism which captured the Vatican in the era under examination [the Renaissance] is vigorously denied by true believers who simply will not allow themselves to countenance it. They choose delusion over truth and call themselves followers of the world's greatest truth teller. This bipolar mentality is of enormous utility to the dark forces under study. "Traditional" Catholic Bishop Richard Williamson wrote in his column, Eleison Comments, of April 5, 2014, titled "Canonizations Unreal":

"The 'canonization' if two Conciliar Popes, John XXIII and John-Paul II, is scheduled for the last Sunday of this month, and many believing Catholics are scared stiff. They know that the Conciliar popes have been (objective) destroyers of the Church. They know that the Church holds canonizations to be infallible. Are they going to be forced to believe that John XXIII and John-Paul II are Saints? It boggles the mind. The Archbishop (Marcel Lefebvre) said that like the mass of modern men, the Conciliar Popes do not believe in any truth being stable. For instance John-Paul II's formation was based on truth evolving, moving with the times, progressing with the advance of science, etc. Truth never being fixed is the reason why in 1988 John-Paul II condemned the SSPX (Society of St. Pius X) Episcopal Consecrations, because they sprang from a fixed and not living or moving idea of Catholic Tradition. For indeed Catholics hold, for example, every word in the Credo to be unchangeable, because the words have been hammered out over the ages to express as perfectly as possible the unchanging truths of the Faith, and these words have been infallibly defined by the Church's popes and Councils."
Nevertheless, "The vigilance and the pastoral solicitude of the Roman Pontiff...according to the duties of his office, are principally and above all manifested in maintaining and conversing the unity and integrity of the Catholic faith, without which it is impossible to please God..."

The "traditional" Catholic writer dares to use his conscience and private judgment to disclaim the judgment of the Apostolic See which is to be disclaimed by no one. Nor can it be judged.

"Traditional" Catholics quote Vatican Council I and omit a key sentence from its decree. Here it is: "...the See of St. Peter always remains unimpaired by any error..." We know of "traditional" Catholics who revel in this astonishing, "infallible" statement and at one time quoted it often, but now, not quite as often. The late twentieth and twenty-first century popes view these "traditional" and "conservative" Catholics as ignoramuses sadly in need of initiation into the hidden verities of the Church, as understood by the pontiff and the hierarchy, in all secrecy.

Imagine what an inside joke it must be in Rome when the "traditional" Catholics come calling and boldly declare that, when it comes to Judaism, they want the Church returned to the way it was before Vatican II. "Guys," the cardinals and clerics are thinking, "what you wish for is now, and has been, for five long centuries. The only difference being that we went public with it in 1965."

The Second Vatican Council was the culmination of Renaissance popery. The gnosis of Renaissance popes is reflected in the theology and actions of modern Popes Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis. The Roman Church in the Renaissance did not have a "vacant see." All of the pontiffs who reigned (with the exception of the Avignon interregnum), were incontrovertibly popes and some of those popes approved the overthrow of Catholic dogma that had been held by all the Church since the first century A.D. The others who did not overthrow it condoned the revolution by the fact that they did not restore the dogma. Those popes were not just material heretics, they were formal ones.

The "Conservative" and "traditional Catholic" movement as now constituted is doomed to failure because the post-Renaissance popes of Rome and their hierarchies will not be taught doctrine and history by "traditionalist" cowans, dupes and goyim. The post-Renaissance popes and their hierarchies possess the key to a mystery of history which the "traditional" Catholics do not: the "traditional Catholic" papacy and its administrative organs and instruments radically departed from the dogma of the Church, beginning around the last decades of the fifteenth century. The magisterial dogmas that were tossed away were never restored. For five hundred years the three Traditions of the Renaissance Church of Rome have been: 1. Judaism and the occult; 2. Lying and deceit; and 3. The root of evil itself--the legalization of the love of money. [usury] 
When "traditional" Catholics appeal for a restoration of tradition, what can be the reaction of the contemporary Vatican's bishops, cardinals and pope, other than mirth and mockery? If one desires 500 years of Catholic tradition, then look to the Second Vatican Council and you will find the culmination of five hundred years of Renaissance occult Catholic tradition, contrasted with fifteen hundred years of Catholic Truth as taught by Jesus, the Apostles, the Fathers of the Early Church and most of the theologians of the Middle Ages.

-the Occult Renaissance Church of Rome by Michael Hoffman, pp. 43-46.


It's certainly plausible, and, from a providential standpoint, would explain why Our Lady warned us of the corruption of the Church as early as the 16th century through Our Lady of Good Success. Perhaps due to the deep-seated, irreversible corruption of the Church is why the next chastisement will be so severe.


I offer this merely as an alternative perspective outside of the typical rallying-points of simple Masonry, Communism, and Globalism we see in trad circles.

I don't have any specific comments on Mr. Hoffman's thesis but I am convinced at the "Spirit of Vatican II" didn't originate at Vatican II (thus it is a misnomer).  The Church didn't go from traditional and faithful in 1962 to the clown Masses, ecumenism, and religious indifferentism that would seem to sweep the Church by the early 1970's.  The early Modernists that St. Pius X beat back didn't come from nowhere.  All of this has been building up for a very long time, perhaps for centuries now.  The Devil plays the long game.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#20
(06-07-2020, 02:38 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: I don't have any specific comments on Mr. Hoffman's thesis but I am convinced at the "Spirit of Vatican II" didn't originate at Vatican II (thus it is a misnomer).  The Church didn't go from traditional and faithful in 1962 to the clown Masses, ecumenism, and religious indifferentism that would seem to sweep the Church by the early 1970's.  The early Modernists that St. Pius X beat back didn't come from nowhere.  All of this has been building up for a very long time, perhaps for centuries now.  The Devil plays the long game.

And this, at its center, is what he's getting at with his book. Which, I got about halfway through it originally and was scandalized because I thought he was trying to denigrate the Church. But, now that I understand Mr. Hoffman's thought, what he says makes a lot of sense and he backs it up with quite a bit of sources. I've got to say, the book is a black pill for sure.

As for Modernism, as derived from the author's thesis, it has to do with the occult concept of Revelation of the Method. Essentially,  event A happens, is wrapped up quickly, and then is frozen with the evidence surrounding it. Over time, circumstances surrounding event A begin to "thaw" as more and more information contrary to the supposed conclusions of event A are "exposed". Eventually, the truth behind event A is publically exposed at a time when it is too late to do anything about it. Modernism, and Masonry, in essence, were the trickle-down effects of this severe occult corruption in the Church hierarchy; the bulk of which culminated in the public exposure of the "Church of Rome" at Vatican II.

There's a reason beyond mere communist and Masonic infiltration as to why Vatican II happened simultaneously with the Kennedy assassination and the depravity of the 60s. According to the author, this was all meant to be "revealed" once the public had been sufficiently dulled to the "Method."
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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