Refutation of Ubi Petrus
#21
(04-01-2021, 12:48 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: That's the kind of cancerous talk that drove me out of traditional Catholicism to begin with.  The smug, holier than thou attitudes and the quickness which some leap, champing at the bit, to condemn others to Hell for all eternity because they don't meet their standard as a Catholic.  Be assured, your way of thinking is dying out, thanks be to God.  You are in the minority.  You can cling to the past if antiquinarianism brings you comfort.  But Rome no longer thinks as you do, and the entirety of the East do not think as you do.  In short, Catholicism no longer thinks as you do.

St. Joe, how much contact to trads to you have in real life? 

I know that this is an attitude you will find, but I have been trad for something like 4 or 5 years now, and I really haven't encountered this mentality to the degree that you seem to think it is present in the trad world (aside from in myself, but that is the confidence of youthful ignorance.)
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#22
SeekerofChrist Wrote:A messy situation, to be sure. Do you need your wife's permission to become an Eastern Catholic? Would she be enraged? She doesn't have to make the switch with you. Beyond that, I do not think you'll find the Eastern Catholics reject papal infallibility or universal jurisdiction. If they do, I'd love to see a source for that. It has always been my understanding that they do accept those dogmas. And if I'm right about them doing so, perhaps you could profit from reading about those doctrines from Eastern Catholic sources. Perhaps they understand and explain them in a way that will be easier for you to accept.

Papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction, along with the filioque, purgatory, and other Latin peculiarities, aren't officially, or even de facto, rejected (though there are a number of individuals who take it upon themselves to do so). But they aren't really highlighted or paid much attention to, either. They just don't play much of a role in Byzantine spirituality. Because of this, the Eastern Catholic indifference towards them can come across as implicit rejection.
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#23
(04-01-2021, 02:03 PM)Melkite Wrote:
SeekerofChrist Wrote:A messy situation, to be sure.  Do you need your wife's permission to become an Eastern Catholic?  Would she be enraged?  She doesn't have to make the switch with you.  Beyond that, I do not think you'll find the Eastern Catholics reject papal infallibility or universal jurisdiction.  If they do, I'd love to see a source for that.  It has always been my understanding that they do accept those dogmas.  And if I'm right about them doing so, perhaps you could profit from reading about those doctrines from Eastern Catholic sources.  Perhaps they understand and explain them in a way that will be easier for you to accept.

Papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction, along with the filioque, purgatory, and other Latin peculiarities, aren't officially, or even de facto, rejected (though there are a number of individuals who take it upon themselves to do so).  But they aren't really highlighted or paid much attention to, either.  They just don't play much of a role in Byzantine spirituality.  Because of this, the Eastern Catholic indifference towards them can come across as implicit rejection.

I suspected that this was probably the case.  I did not think that the Eastern Catholics rejected these Catholic dogmas.  They're part of the Catholic Church, after all.  But our friend here seems convinced that they don't believe these things.  He even seems convinced that Rome has repudiated them.  I'd grant they've been watered-down in places like Rome but that's the extent of it.  Once more, the fruits of Vatican II have been confusion and error on even defined dogmas.  Such a pity.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#24
(04-01-2021, 02:46 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 02:03 PM)Melkite Wrote:
SeekerofChrist Wrote:A messy situation, to be sure.  Do you need your wife's permission to become an Eastern Catholic?  Would she be enraged?  She doesn't have to make the switch with you.  Beyond that, I do not think you'll find the Eastern Catholics reject papal infallibility or universal jurisdiction.  If they do, I'd love to see a source for that.  It has always been my understanding that they do accept those dogmas.  And if I'm right about them doing so, perhaps you could profit from reading about those doctrines from Eastern Catholic sources.  Perhaps they understand and explain them in a way that will be easier for you to accept.

Papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction, along with the filioque, purgatory, and other Latin peculiarities, aren't officially, or even de facto, rejected (though there are a number of individuals who take it upon themselves to do so).  But they aren't really highlighted or paid much attention to, either.  They just don't play much of a role in Byzantine spirituality.  Because of this, the Eastern Catholic indifference towards them can come across as implicit rejection.

I suspected that this was probably the case.  I did not think that the Eastern Catholics rejected these Catholic dogmas.  They're part of the Catholic Church, after all.  But our friend here seems convinced that they don't believe these things.  He even seems convinced that Rome has repudiated them.  I'd grant they've been watered-down in places like Rome but that's the extent of it.  Once more, the fruits of Vatican II have been confusion and error on even defined dogmas.  Such a pity.

Or Vatican II is just the beginning of God purifying His church from the errors of raising the papacy above God?
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#25
Meaningless. Great megachurch talking point, but theologically meaningless.
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#26
(04-01-2021, 04:11 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: Or Vatican II is just the beginning of God purifying His church from the errors of raising the papacy above God?

If you believe that, I have to ask in all seriousness, why you are on a Traditionalist forum where the vast majority of members believe that Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster for the Church?
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
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My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
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#27
(04-01-2021, 04:37 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 04:11 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: Or Vatican II is just the beginning of God purifying His church from the errors of raising the papacy above God?

If you believe that, I have to ask in all seriousness, why you are on a Traditionalist forum where the vast majority of members believe that Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster for the Church?

Jovan there's nothing wrong with believing Vatican II was a disaster in it's design and/or implementation.  Some members on here go entirely too far in calling Vatican II and the Roman Church after Vatican II the "anti-church" as though their private interpretation of tradition is part of the remnant/faithful/true church.  It's patently absurd, but it's a prevailing point of view on traditional websites and forums.

As to the other user who asked why I'm here, with my difficulty in accepting the papal claims.  It's because I want to get the other side.  I am not fully convinced of Orthodoxy's attacks against the papacy and am also not fully convinced of Rome's papal claims.  I had only really known them at a nominal level.  I figured if I could sort through the toxic users on here, I could find the solid traditional Catholics who could make a case for it, and other things.
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#28
(04-01-2021, 06:42 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 04:37 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 04:11 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: Or Vatican II is just the beginning of God purifying His church from the errors of raising the papacy above God?

If you believe that, I have to ask in all seriousness, why you are on a Traditionalist forum where the vast majority of members believe that Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster for the Church?

Jovan there's nothing wrong with believing Vatican II was a disaster in it's design and/or implementation.  Some members on here go entirely too far in calling Vatican II and the Roman Church after Vatican II the "anti-church" as though their private interpretation of tradition is part of the remnant/faithful/true church.  It's patently absurd, but it's a prevailing point of view on traditional websites and forums.

As to the other user who asked why I'm here, with my difficulty in accepting the papal claims.  It's because I want to get the other side.  I am not fully convinced of Orthodoxy's attacks against the papacy and am also not fully convinced of Rome's papal claims.  I had only really known them at a nominal level.  I figured if I could sort through the toxic users on here, I could find the solid traditional Catholics who could make a case for it, and other things.

What I'm getting from this is that you want to find people who will affirm you in your errors, rather than show you why you're in error in the first place. If that's the case, then you're in the wrong forum.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#29
(04-01-2021, 06:42 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: I figured if I could sort through the toxic users on here, I could find the solid traditional Catholics who could make a case for it, and other things.

We've been making the case for it, using the Eastern Fathers, and quoting Conciliar and Papal statements, and for doing so, we get called 'toxic'?
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#30
(04-01-2021, 06:42 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: As to the other user who asked why I'm here, with my difficulty in accepting the papal claims.  It's because I want to get the other side.  I am not fully convinced of Orthodoxy's attacks against the papacy and am also not fully convinced of Rome's papal claims.  I had only really known them at a nominal level.

What is "Rome's papal claims"?

(04-01-2021, 06:42 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: I figured if I could sort through the toxic users on here, I could find the solid traditional Catholics who could make a case for it, and other things.

Why do you think a non-Catholic would be able to judge the solidity of Catholics? Do we expect the deaf to judge singing competitions or dyslexics to judge spelling bees?
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