Interesting article : What Is Behind Francis’ Rehabilitation of Judas?
#11
(04-08-2021, 06:46 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: St Peter denied Christ 3 times, even the catechism of the Catholic church states ....

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#12
(04-08-2021, 06:58 PM)Bonaventure Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 06:46 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: St Peter denied Christ 3 times, even the catechism of the Catholic church states ....

^-- Catholic Answers Refugee status: Confirmed.
What is your opinion on the Catechism's opinion?
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#13
(04-08-2021, 06:40 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 06:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Wasn't Judas essentially like virtually all sinners? He despaired but so many of us have despaired, i do not see why people take a look at Judas as being a devil when he was a fallen human like the rest of the apostles who also committed serious sins during their lives.

I don't know about anyone else but I've never been a party to deicide.

I mean, not to be that guy, but, aren't we party to deicide every time we commit a mortal sin since it necessitates the Passion? I recall Christ lamenting to Saints of them crucifying Him anew through their disobedience (I believe this was said to St. Margaret Mary).

This logic doesn't rehabilitate Judas because he never repented of his sin but gave himself over totally to despair and murdered himself, dying not only through his own hand, or by greed, but also with the blood of a traitor.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#14
(04-08-2021, 07:41 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 06:40 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 06:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Wasn't Judas essentially like virtually all sinners? He despaired but so many of us have despaired, i do not see why people take a look at Judas as being a devil when he was a fallen human like the rest of the apostles who also committed serious sins during their lives.

I don't know about anyone else but I've never been a party to deicide.

I mean, not to be that guy, but, aren't we party to deicide every time we commit a mortal sin since it necessitates the Passion? I recall Christ lamenting to Saints of them crucifying Him anew through their disobedience (I believe this was said to St. Margaret Mary).

This logic doesn't rehabilitate Judas because he never repented of his sin but gave himself over totally to despair and murdered himself, dying not only through his own hand, or by greed, but also with the blood of a traitor.

That thought had occurred to me but our participation is fairly remote and far removed, whereas Judas literally handed him over to the authorities.  I think it is like the difference between buying an item made in China by slave children and being personally present at the factory to buy some items as the slave children are whipped, beaten, and otherwise abused.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#15
(04-08-2021, 07:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What is your opinion on the Catechism's opinion?

The Catechism is quite clear:

Quote:[The Fifth Commandment] also forbids suicide. No man possesses such power over his own life as to be at liberty to put himself to death. Hence we find that the Commandment does not say: Thou shalt not kill another, but simply: Thou shalt not kill. ~The Catechism of the Council of Trent (Roman Catechism)

Quote:1 Q. What does the Fifth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill, forbid?
A. The Fifth Commandment, Thou shalt not kill, forbids us to kill, strike, wound or do any other bodily harm to our neighbour, either of ourselves or by the agency of others; as also to wish him evil, or to offend him by injurious language. In this Commandment God also forbids the taking of one’s own life, or suicide.
...
7 Q. Why does God, in the Fifth Commandment, forbid the taking of one’s own life or suicide?
A. In the Fifth Commandment God forbids suicide, because man is not the master of his own life no more than of the life of another. Hence the Church punishes suicide by deprivation of Christian burial.

~Catechism of St. Pius X

Note: No denial was made as being a Catholic Answers Refugee.
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#16
(04-08-2021, 07:45 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:41 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 06:40 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 06:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Wasn't Judas essentially like virtually all sinners? He despaired but so many of us have despaired, i do not see why people take a look at Judas as being a devil when he was a fallen human like the rest of the apostles who also committed serious sins during their lives.

I don't know about anyone else but I've never been a party to deicide.

I mean, not to be that guy, but, aren't we party to deicide every time we commit a mortal sin since it necessitates the Passion? I recall Christ lamenting to Saints of them crucifying Him anew through their disobedience (I believe this was said to St. Margaret Mary).

This logic doesn't rehabilitate Judas because he never repented of his sin but gave himself over totally to despair and murdered himself, dying not only through his own hand, or by greed, but also with the blood of a traitor.

That thought had occurred to me but our participation is fairly remote and far removed, whereas Judas literally handed him over to the authorities.  I think it is like the difference between buying an item made in China by slave children and being personally present at the factory to buy some items as the slave children are whipped, beaten, and otherwise abused.
Regardless i think any participation in any mortal sin is equivalent to murdering Christ so whether it is remote or not is not the point, i mean any mortal sin committed is worthy of Hell.
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#17
(04-08-2021, 07:57 PM)Bonaventure Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What is your opinion on the Catechism's opinion?

The Catechism is quite clear:

Quote:[The Fifth Commandment] also forbids suicide. No man possesses such power over his own life as to be at liberty to put himself to death. Hence we find that the Commandment does not say: Thou shalt not kill another, but simply: Thou shalt not kill. ~The Catechism of the Council of Trent (Roman Catechism)

Quote:1 Q. What does the Fifth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill, forbid?
A. The Fifth Commandment, Thou shalt not kill, forbids us to kill, strike, wound or do any other bodily harm to our neighbour, either of ourselves or by the agency of others; as also to wish him evil, or to offend him by injurious language. In this Commandment God also forbids the taking of one’s own life, or suicide.
...
7 Q. Why does God, in the Fifth Commandment, forbid the taking of one’s own life or suicide?
A. In the Fifth Commandment God forbids suicide, because man is not the master of his own life no more than of the life of another. Hence the Church punishes suicide by deprivation of Christian burial.

~Catechism of St. Pius X

Note: No denial was made as being a Catholic Answers Refugee.
Yep the church obviously forbids suicide but like i posted in the previous comment the Cathechism gives us hope that even people who have committed suicide should not certainly be damned, it makes sense to me for the Church to say that suicide is a mortal sin but it's forgiveness is not impossible.
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#18
(04-08-2021, 07:58 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:45 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:41 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 06:40 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 06:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Wasn't Judas essentially like virtually all sinners? He despaired but so many of us have despaired, i do not see why people take a look at Judas as being a devil when he was a fallen human like the rest of the apostles who also committed serious sins during their lives.

I don't know about anyone else but I've never been a party to deicide.

I mean, not to be that guy, but, aren't we party to deicide every time we commit a mortal sin since it necessitates the Passion? I recall Christ lamenting to Saints of them crucifying Him anew through their disobedience (I believe this was said to St. Margaret Mary).

This logic doesn't rehabilitate Judas because he never repented of his sin but gave himself over totally to despair and murdered himself, dying not only through his own hand, or by greed, but also with the blood of a traitor.

That thought had occurred to me but our participation is fairly remote and far removed, whereas Judas literally handed him over to the authorities.  I think it is like the difference between buying an item made in China by slave children and being personally present at the factory to buy some items as the slave children are whipped, beaten, and otherwise abused.
Regardless i think any participation in any mortal sin is equivalent to murdering Christ so whether it is remote or not is not the point, i mean any mortal sin committed is worthy of Hell.

Yes, but our degree of punishment in Hell is determined by our actual sins.  Not all sinners are equal.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
Reply
#19
(04-08-2021, 08:04 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:58 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:45 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:41 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 06:40 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 06:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Wasn't Judas essentially like virtually all sinners? He despaired but so many of us have despaired, i do not see why people take a look at Judas as being a devil when he was a fallen human like the rest of the apostles who also committed serious sins during their lives.

I don't know about anyone else but I've never been a party to deicide.

I mean, not to be that guy, but, aren't we party to deicide every time we commit a mortal sin since it necessitates the Passion? I recall Christ lamenting to Saints of them crucifying Him anew through their disobedience (I believe this was said to St. Margaret Mary).

This logic doesn't rehabilitate Judas because he never repented of his sin but gave himself over totally to despair and murdered himself, dying not only through his own hand, or by greed, but also with the blood of a traitor.

That thought had occurred to me but our participation is fairly remote and far removed, whereas Judas literally handed him over to the authorities.  I think it is like the difference between buying an item made in China by slave children and being personally present at the factory to buy some items as the slave children are whipped, beaten, and otherwise abused.
Regardless i think any participation in any mortal sin is equivalent to murdering Christ so whether it is remote or not is not the point, i mean any mortal sin committed is worthy of Hell.

Yes, but our degree of punishment in Hell is determined by our actual sins.  Not all sinners are equal.
Indeed but then that is no consolation to be in Hell and to be punished less than others, it is still Hell after all.
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#20
(04-08-2021, 08:01 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:57 PM)Bonaventure Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What is your opinion on the Catechism's opinion?

The Catechism is quite clear:

Quote:[The Fifth Commandment] also forbids suicide. No man possesses such power over his own life as to be at liberty to put himself to death. Hence we find that the Commandment does not say: Thou shalt not kill another, but simply: Thou shalt not kill. ~The Catechism of the Council of Trent (Roman Catechism)

Quote:1 Q. What does the Fifth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill, forbid?
A. The Fifth Commandment, Thou shalt not kill, forbids us to kill, strike, wound or do any other bodily harm to our neighbour, either of ourselves or by the agency of others; as also to wish him evil, or to offend him by injurious language. In this Commandment God also forbids the taking of one’s own life, or suicide.
...
7 Q. Why does God, in the Fifth Commandment, forbid the taking of one’s own life or suicide?
A. In the Fifth Commandment God forbids suicide, because man is not the master of his own life no more than of the life of another. Hence the Church punishes suicide by deprivation of Christian burial.

~Catechism of St. Pius X

Note: No denial was made as being a Catholic Answers Refugee.
Yep the church obviously forbids suicide but like i posted in the previous comment the Cathechism gives us hope that even people who have committed suicide should not certainly be damned, it makes sense to me for the Church to say that suicide is a mortal sin but it's forgiveness is not impossible.
How exactly can that happen practically? Once one commits suicide they literally have no chance to repent because, you know, they’re dead. Right after death is when particular judgement happens. There is no pause in between death and judgment for us to repent of the mortal sin of suicide. I feel like this catechism (not surprisingly) is being vague and trying to appease all the crowds. You cannot be saved with a mortal sin on your hands, but suicide is a mortal sin, thus you cannot be saved after suicide. There is no way to turn this around.
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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