Interesting article : What Is Behind Francis’ Rehabilitation of Judas?
#31
(04-08-2021, 10:44 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 10:30 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Was the rehabilitation of Judas impossible?

Is this speculation necessary?  Will idle talk save Judas?  Will it save anyone?  Will it do anything other than scandalize?

I think the answer is simple enough: yes, before he hanged himself, Judas could have used his free will to repent of his sin.  Catholicism isn't a fatalistic religion, like Islam.  But Judas didn't.  He chose to compound his sins by taking his own life.  Our Lord knew how this was going to go down and He revealed Judas's eternal destination to be that of damnation.  I don't think there is much more to be said.  We've got actual saints who were originally very sinful, or trapped in despair, and who chose to accept God's graces and convert to Christ.  I say we focus on them, as no speculation of any kind is necessary, and we get real world examples of what to do if we find ourselves in a similar boat.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#32
(04-08-2021, 09:06 PM)Bonaventure Wrote: It would appear that a primer on proper use of quoting in responses is necessary.
Sorry, I tried fixing it but it made some weird mess of a response with a bunch of empty boxes lol.
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#33
(04-08-2021, 10:08 PM)Paul Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:06 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote: How exactly can that happen practically? Once one commits suicide they literally have no chance to repent because, you know, they’re dead. Right after death is when particular judgement happens. There is no pause in between death and judgment for us to repent of the mortal sin of suicide. I feel like this catechism (not surprisingly) is being vague and trying to appease all the crowds. You cannot be saved with a mortal sin on your hands, but suicide is a mortal sin, thus you cannot be saved after suicide. There is no way to turn this around.

You can possibly repent between the time you attempt to kill yourself and the time you actually die. Padre Pio once told a woman her husband, who committed suicide by jumping off a bridge, was saved, because he repented between the bridge and the water. Mortal sin also requires full consent and knowledge, and perhaps mental illness mitigates that.

Yet if Judas was saved, then our Lord wouldn't have said it would have been better for him to never have been born.
Yes I agree that this case is entirely possible and probable, and I don’t doubt Padre Pio. I was referring to the majority of cases however where one commits suicide in a frenzy full of rush and emotions, where they don’t have time to repent, and have a swift death.
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#34
The main issue i have with the matter of Judas damnation is that he might not have committed suicide had he known that he would have gone to Hell, i have no knowledge of Judas exact frame of mind but his suicide appears to me to be so similar to the suicides of many where they feel overwhelmed and decide to end it all, perhaps he felt at such pain that he wanted to be with Christ instead of living on earth?
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#35
(04-08-2021, 10:53 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 10:44 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 10:30 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Was the rehabilitation of Judas impossible?

Is this speculation necessary?  Will idle talk save Judas?  Will it save anyone?  Will it do anything other than scandalize?
I don't know what was going through Judas mind when he hanged himself but it was probably similar to what goes through the mind of lots of people that commit suicide, the fundamental thing is about God being fair and ensuring that those that are damned are only damned because their salvation is impossible through every mean, that would go against St Augustine's teaching where he never denied that it was impossible for God to save everyone ultimately(not that he was a universalist though he was never able to give a full explanation as to why some are damned.
You "don't know what was going through Judas mind..." BUT....then you go on to speculate about what "probably" goes on in the minds of lots of people who commit suicide.  How would you even know what goes on in their minds if they are actually successful in their suicides, apart from some kind of detailed note or something which nevertheless fails to communicate what is going on immediately between the beginning of the "attempt" and actual death?

Idle speculation, really
“But all will be well, and all will be well, and every kind of thing will be well.” ~Julian of Norwich

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug."~Mark Knopfler (?)

"No matter who you are somebody thinks you're a heretic. Wear it like a badge of honor........... :LOL:"~Silouan

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#36
(04-10-2021, 01:05 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: The main issue i have with the matter of Judas damnation is that he might not have committed suicide had he known that he would have gone to Hell, i have no knowledge of Judas exact frame of mind but his suicide appears to me to be so similar to the suicides of many where they feel overwhelmed and decide to end it all, perhaps he felt at such pain that he wanted to be with Christ instead of living on earth?
More idle speculation that leads nowhere.
“But all will be well, and all will be well, and every kind of thing will be well.” ~Julian of Norwich

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug."~Mark Knopfler (?)

"No matter who you are somebody thinks you're a heretic. Wear it like a badge of honor........... :LOL:"~Silouan

The fact that I "like" a post is not necessarily an endorsement or approval of its content.
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#37
(04-10-2021, 01:21 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 10:53 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 10:44 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 10:30 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Was the rehabilitation of Judas impossible?

Is this speculation necessary?  Will idle talk save Judas?  Will it save anyone?  Will it do anything other than scandalize?
I don't know what was going through Judas mind when he hanged himself but it was probably similar to what goes through the mind of lots of people that commit suicide, the fundamental thing is about God being fair and ensuring that those that are damned are only damned because their salvation is impossible through every mean, that would go against St Augustine's teaching where he never denied that it was impossible for God to save everyone ultimately(not that he was a universalist though he was never able to give a full explanation as to why some are damned.
You "don't know what was going through Judas mind..." BUT....then you go on to speculate about what "probably" goes on in the minds of lots of people who commit suicide.  How would you even know what goes on in their minds if they are actually successful in their suicides, apart from some kind of detailed note or something which nevertheless fails to communicate what is going on immediately between the beginning of the "attempt" and actual death?

Idle speculation, really
Suicide is usually caused by anguish and a lack of hope about the future, the Catechism understands that and says that the salvation of suicides is not impossible, Judas seems to be similar to a lot of people who have committed suicide in that he regretted his decisions and probably killed himself to spare himself from a life filled with regret, unwise considering that he knew that suicide was a mortal sin but then what he did was probably out of regret more than anything and very unlikely to be out of malice.
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#38
(04-10-2021, 01:26 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Suicide is usually caused by anguish and a lack of hope about the future, the Catechism understands that and says that the salvation of suicides is not impossible, Judas seems to be similar to a lot of people who have committed suicide in that he regretted his decisions and probably killed himself to spare himself from a life filled with regret, unwise considering that he knew that suicide was a mortal sin but then what he did was probably out of regret more than anything and very unlikely to be out of malice.

What good is it to expound on mercy when most people don't believe in the need for repentance? When most don't even believe in sin?

No one today is afflicted by despair of sin and guilt, and nearly everyone is afflicted by actual atheism or functional atheism.
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#39
(04-10-2021, 01:34 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 01:26 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Suicide is usually caused by anguish and a lack of hope about the future, the Catechism understands that and says that the salvation of suicides is not impossible, Judas seems to be similar to a lot of people who have committed suicide in that he regretted his decisions and probably killed himself to spare himself from a life filled with regret, unwise considering that he knew that suicide was a mortal sin but then what he did was probably out of regret more than anything and very unlikely to be out of malice.

What good is it to expound on mercy when most people don't believe in the need for repentance?  When most don't even believe in sin?

No one today is afflicted by despair of sin and guilt, and nearly everyone is afflicted by actual atheism or functional atheism.
I think high crime rates in largely Catholic Latin America might contradict your point, the thing is even in societies where people believe in sin, believe in the Devil there is an awful lot of crime and disorder, you can have the most Hellfire sermons imaginable yet that does not seem to be a deterrent to people who just want to shoot others up.
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#40
(04-10-2021, 01:26 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Suicide is usually caused by anguish and a lack of hope about the future, the Catechism understands that and says that the salvation of suicides is not impossible, Judas seems to be similar to a lot of people who have committed suicide in that he regretted his decisions and probably killed himself to spare himself from a life filled with regret, unwise considering that he knew that suicide was a mortal sin but then what he did was probably out of regret more than anything and very unlikely to be out of malice.

What causes suicide and what the Catechism has to say about it nothwithstanding, you still cannot possibly know what goes on in a suicide's mind up to the moment of death.

Judas may "seem" similar to other suicides, but only he was the immediate betrayer of Jesus.  There is no equal or similar suicide in history.

"usually", "if", "might have", "possibly", etc. really get you nowhere in a discussion like this.  What's the old saying, "if horses were wishes then beggars would ride"?  Judas betrayed Jesus, despaired and hanged himself.  That's what we know from Scripture.  We really "know" nothing else about it, ergo...idle speculation.  Now, you can write fiction, even good, exciting, interesting fiction, on that basis, but it remains...fiction.
“But all will be well, and all will be well, and every kind of thing will be well.” ~Julian of Norwich

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug."~Mark Knopfler (?)

"No matter who you are somebody thinks you're a heretic. Wear it like a badge of honor........... :LOL:"~Silouan

The fact that I "like" a post is not necessarily an endorsement or approval of its content.
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