Interesting article : What Is Behind Francis’ Rehabilitation of Judas?
#41
(04-10-2021, 01:49 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 01:26 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Suicide is usually caused by anguish and a lack of hope about the future, the Catechism understands that and says that the salvation of suicides is not impossible, Judas seems to be similar to a lot of people who have committed suicide in that he regretted his decisions and probably killed himself to spare himself from a life filled with regret, unwise considering that he knew that suicide was a mortal sin but then what he did was probably out of regret more than anything and very unlikely to be out of malice.

What causes suicide and what the Catechism has to say about it nothwithstanding, you still cannot possibly know what goes on in a suicide's mind up to the moment of death.

Judas may "seem" similar to other suicides, but only he was the immediate betrayer of Jesus.  There is no equal or similar suicide in history.

"usually", "if", "might have", "possibly", etc. really get you nowhere in a discussion like this.  What's the old saying, "if horses were wishes then beggars would ride"?  Judas betrayed Jesus, despaired and hanged himself.  That's what we know from Scripture.  We really "know" nothing else about it, ergo...idle speculation.  Now, you can write fiction, even good, exciting, interesting fiction, on that basis, but it remains...fiction.
You say Judas was different because he lived with Christ, that does not make him very different really, perhaps he found Christ confusing, i don't know but living with Christ himself is a blessing but it hardly makes one different in their general outlook on things, you could theoretically say we all live with Christ in that we know of his presence and have his teachings. So in that respect i can't really see Judas as being anymore culpable than any other Catholic who takes their life.
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#42
Wrong

John 20:29
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#43
(04-10-2021, 01:57 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: You say Judas was different because he lived with Christ, that does not make him very different really, perhaps he found Christ confusing, i don't know but living with Christ himself is a blessing but it hardly makes one different in their general outlook on things, you could theoretically say we all live with Christ in that we know of his presence and have his teachings. So in that respect i can't really see Judas as being anymore culpable than any other Catholic who takes their life.
Again, you speculate. 

What is different about Judas is that he and only he was the immediate betrayer of Christ.

What would it take for you to "get" that you cannot possibly know what goes on in the mind of a suicide up to the moment of their death?  Are you able to read minds?
“But all will be well, and all will be well, and every kind of thing will be well.” ~Julian of Norwich

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug."~Mark Knopfler (?)

"No matter who you are somebody thinks you're a heretic. Wear it like a badge of honor........... :LOL:"~Silouan

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#44
(04-10-2021, 02:10 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 01:57 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: You say Judas was different because he lived with Christ, that does not make him very different really, perhaps he found Christ confusing, i don't know but living with Christ himself is a blessing but it hardly makes one different in their general outlook on things, you could theoretically say we all live with Christ in that we know of his presence and have his teachings. So in that respect i can't really see Judas as being anymore culpable than any other Catholic who takes their life.
Again, you speculate. 

What is different about Judas is that he and only he was the immediate betrayer of Christ.

What would it take for you to "get" that you cannot possibly know what goes on in the mind of a suicide up to the moment of their death?  Are you able to read minds?
I don't know what goes on in the mind of a suicide but the way God can forgive is different to the way man can forgive, the Church says that God can offer salutary repentance to those who commit suicides but does not go into detail as to how it can happen, Judas despaired but he is one of millions who have despaired at the end of their life. All i am trying to say is that Judas is us in so many ways, so many of us betray Christ, St Peter denied Christ 3 times, suicide can i am sure be forgiven just like any other sin.
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#45
(04-10-2021, 02:20 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 02:10 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 01:57 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: You say Judas was different because he lived with Christ, that does not make him very different really, perhaps he found Christ confusing, i don't know but living with Christ himself is a blessing but it hardly makes one different in their general outlook on things, you could theoretically say we all live with Christ in that we know of his presence and have his teachings. So in that respect i can't really see Judas as being anymore culpable than any other Catholic who takes their life.
Again, you speculate. 

What is different about Judas is that he and only he was the immediate betrayer of Christ.

What would it take for you to "get" that you cannot possibly know what goes on in the mind of a suicide up to the moment of their death?  Are you able to read minds?
I don't know what goes on in the mind of a suicide but the way God can forgive is different to the way man can forgive, the Church says that God can offer salutary repentance to those who commit suicides but does not go into detail as to how it can happen, Judas despaired but he is one of millions who have despaired at the end of their life. All i am trying to say is that Judas is us in so many ways, so many of us betray Christ, St Peter denied Christ 3 times, suicide can i am sure be forgiven just like any other sin.
All of which is for only God to know.
“But all will be well, and all will be well, and every kind of thing will be well.” ~Julian of Norwich

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug."~Mark Knopfler (?)

"No matter who you are somebody thinks you're a heretic. Wear it like a badge of honor........... :LOL:"~Silouan

The fact that I "like" a post is not necessarily an endorsement or approval of its content.
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#46
(04-10-2021, 02:31 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 02:20 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 02:10 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 01:57 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: You say Judas was different because he lived with Christ, that does not make him very different really, perhaps he found Christ confusing, i don't know but living with Christ himself is a blessing but it hardly makes one different in their general outlook on things, you could theoretically say we all live with Christ in that we know of his presence and have his teachings. So in that respect i can't really see Judas as being anymore culpable than any other Catholic who takes their life.
Again, you speculate. 

What is different about Judas is that he and only he was the immediate betrayer of Christ.

What would it take for you to "get" that you cannot possibly know what goes on in the mind of a suicide up to the moment of their death?  Are you able to read minds?
I don't know what goes on in the mind of a suicide but the way God can forgive is different to the way man can forgive, the Church says that God can offer salutary repentance to those who commit suicides but does not go into detail as to how it can happen, Judas despaired but he is one of millions who have despaired at the end of their life. All i am trying to say is that Judas is us in so many ways, so many of us betray Christ, St Peter denied Christ 3 times, suicide can i am sure be forgiven just like any other sin.
All of which is for only God to know.
Of course only God can really know but i thought the whole point of the thread was to try and see just how much Pope Francis will be able to rehabilitate Judas, i mean we always see him as the bad disciple but fundamentally his bad deeds tally was probably no greater than that of many of the apostles.
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#47
(04-10-2021, 02:39 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Of course only God can really know but i thought the whole point of the thread was to try and see just how much Pope Francis will be able to rehabilitate Judas, i mean we always see him as the bad disciple but fundamentally his bad deeds tally was probably no greater than that of many of the apostles.

With the exception of St John, they all died rather than betray Christ. Judas betrayed Him. Christ Himself said it would be better for Judas had he not been born. It's plain to most people, but obviously not to Francis or you, that if he had not been born he couldn't have gone to hell. 
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#48
(04-10-2021, 04:07 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 02:39 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Of course only God can really know but i thought the whole point of the thread was to try and see just how much Pope Francis will be able to rehabilitate Judas, i mean we always see him as the bad disciple but fundamentally his bad deeds tally was probably no greater than that of many of the apostles.

With the exception of St John, they all died rather than betray Christ. Judas betrayed Him. Christ Himself said it would be better for Judas had he not been born. It's plain to most people, but obviously not to Francis or you, that if he had not been born he couldn't have gone to hell. 
What myself and probably Francis are saying is that it would not be impossible for Christ to save Judas, Christ said a lot of things that we should not take literally, saying it would be better for Judas to have not been born is of course not quite literal as Christ needed Judas to exist and one could say that even existing in Hell is better than not existing at all. Judas was all of us who have sinned, i am hopeful he was given another chance maybe just in the very moment he died to ask for forgiveness.
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#49
Judas is in hell.
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#50
The Roman Catholic Church of 2021 (and probably for the last 60 years) is the Church of "pretty much everyone's going to heaven." We can say all we want about former Councils, things written on paper, even Scripture itself, but the fact is that the Church operates as if her reason for existence - the salvation of souls - is a quaint afterthought of an extinct faith. The great irony persists in that as Catholics, our understanding of the Faith and identity as Catholic are tied to acknowledgment and a degree of obedience to the hierarchy, and yet if one wishes to remain Catholic he must practically ignore or even go against these very people. One can remain in this state of cognitive dissonance for only so long.
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