Interesting article : What Is Behind Francis’ Rehabilitation of Judas?
#91
(04-10-2021, 11:10 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 11:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What i was trying to say is that our merits should count for something, why should someone who does a lot of good in life but happens to die before getting to Confession be damned while someone who did a lot of bad in life but dies after getting to Confession be saved? Merit should count and i am sure God could enable a way for people with a lot of merit to seek forgiveness before they are forced to die.

Again, the idea that our "merits should count for something" in the absence of repentance, faith in Jesus Christ, and sanctifying grace is Pelagianism.

Being "sure God could enable a way for people with a lot of merit to seek forgiveness" is presumption.  We can hope, but we must never assume.
Wasn't it presumption for the thief on the cross to know that he would be going to Heaven?(as far as i am aware he was the only living person even if only for an hour or two to have direct knowledge that they would not be going to Hell)
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#92
(04-10-2021, 11:12 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Wasn't it presumption for the thief on the cross to know that he would be going to Heaven?

No, that's ridiculous. Our Lord told him that he would be in Heaven. How can you presume when you've been given direct assurance from God?

(04-10-2021, 11:12 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: (as far as i am aware he was the only living person even if only for an hour or two to have direct knowledge that they would not be going to Hell)

Our Lady also knew. Some saints also knew, if I'm not mistaken. But in every single case, this knowledge didn't change the person. They didn't go out and sin knowing that they'd be forgiven eventually. They all personified heroic virtue: They would rather die than commit a single venial sin.
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#93
(04-10-2021, 11:16 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 11:12 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Wasn't it presumption for the thief on the cross to know that he would be going to Heaven?

No, that's ridiculous.  Our Lord told him that he would be in Heaven.  How can you presume when you've been given direct assurance from God?

(04-10-2021, 11:12 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: (as far as i am aware he was the only living person even if only for an hour or two to have direct knowledge that they would not be going to Hell)

Our Lady also knew.  Some saints also knew, if I'm not mistaken.  But in every single case, this knowledge didn't change the person.  They didn't go out and sin knowing that they'd be forgiven eventually.  They all personified heroic virtue:  They would rather die than commit a single venial sin.
True, that makes me think that if we all received a revelation that we would be saved  it would probably not be a bad thing for the world, i mean look at our world today, the places that worry about sin like Africa, the middle east, S America and parts of America are full of violence while Japan, Sweden or Britain where people worry less about sin have less violence and less corruption.
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#94
(04-10-2021, 11:20 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: True, that makes me think that if we all received a revelation that we would be saved  it would probably not be a bad thing for the world, i mean look at our world today, the places that worry about sin like Africa, the middle east, S America and parts of America are full of violence while Japan, Sweden or Britain where people worry less about sin have less violence and less corruption.

Personal opinion, not Church teaching, but I think that's a post hoc fallacy. Wealth, more likely, is the cause of both widespread atheism and decreases in violence.
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#95
(04-10-2021, 11:24 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 11:20 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: True, that makes me think that if we all received a revelation that we would be saved  it would probably not be a bad thing for the world, i mean look at our world today, the places that worry about sin like Africa, the middle east, S America and parts of America are full of violence while Japan, Sweden or Britain where people worry less about sin have less violence and less corruption.

Personal opinion, not Church teaching, but I think that's a post hoc fallacy.  Wealth, more likely, is the cause of both widespread atheism and decreases in violence.
It seems to be Church teaching and indeed the Catholic Encyclopaedia mentioned that if you get rid of the threat of Hell the world will descend into chaos, mind you that was written back when the world was much more religious than it is today and probably more violent as well. What keeps people behaving is not the threat of Hell so much as the threat of punishment and missing out on a prosperous existence, it probably explains why people seem to have better self restraint with regards to murder in Japan than in Honduras.
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#96
(04-10-2021, 11:27 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What keeps people behaving is not the threat of Hell so much as the threat of punishment and missing out on a prosperous existence, it probably explains why people seem to have better self restraint with regards to murder in Japan than in Honduras.

It's culture. As an example, Canada and the US have similar economies, they speak the same language. Canada is less religious, but allows the public expression of religion much more than US. The US bans tax funding for religious schools, for example, whilst in Canada it is perfectly legal and at least one Province has tax funded Catholic schools. As far as punishment goes, many US States have the death penalty, Canada does not. Life sentences are almost non-existent in Canada.

And yet, Canada ranks 152nd in the world for murders with a rate per 100,000 population of 1.76. The US, on the other hand, ranks 94th with a rate per 100,000 of 4.96, more than 2 1/2 times higher.

Why? Well, Canada never had a 'Wild West'. Because of severe climate differences they never had range wars between the farmers and the ranchers. There was not nearly as much a problem with the Natives as in the US, because, as a general rule they were better treated, with intermarriage being quite common, from whence come the Metis People. 

In other words, the culture developed along different lines. I've heard it summed up in two phrases. In the US it's 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'. In Canada it's 'peace, order, and good government'.

Another example is the UK. Again, pretty much the same, tho' more similar to Canada on the religious angle and much more densely populated than the US and much, much more than Canada. It has a rate of 1.20/100,000.
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#97
(04-10-2021, 11:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What i was trying to say is that our merits should count for something, why should someone who does a lot of good in life but happens to die before getting to Confession be damned while someone who did a lot of bad in life but dies after getting to Confession be saved? Merit should count and i am sure God could enable a way for people with a lot of merit to seek forgiveness before they are forced to die.

Because that's not how it works. The formula for salvation is very simple. Sanctifying Grace + Death = Heaven.

One who dies in a state of grace goes to heaven. One who dies lacking grace goes to hell. We don't earn heaven through good works, and, unlike the ancient Egyptian belief, God doesn't balance the good and bad and send us to heaven or hell based on that. Every mortal sin destroys grace in our souls, so one is all it takes to go to hell, and every mortal sin is an intentional rejection of God. Maybe God does take merit into account, and delays death for some to allow confession, but we'd never know in this life.
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#98
(04-10-2021, 11:20 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: True, that makes me think that if we all received a revelation that we would be saved  it would probably not be a bad thing for the world, i mean look at our world today, the places that worry about sin like Africa, the middle east, S America and parts of America are full of violence while Japan, Sweden or Britain where people worry less about sin have less violence and less corruption.
As a Swede living in Sweden I will tell you what I think. In Sweden, anybody who opposes abortion is regarded as a monster. That is, the vast majority of people are OK with murder of the innocent. Abortions on day 153 of pregnancy are legal with a letter of permission from the state, which can be granted even if child and mother are in perfect physical condition.

Isn't that pretty violent?

Homelessness and poverty is almost non-existent here. Street violence is considered impolite and is frowned upon.

There are plenty of natural reasons to be "nice" to people. It doesn't really require faith in itself.

I read a report on Latin American gangsters that said a lot of them state they believe in Heaven but have no hope of going there. So even if you believe that God is a just rewarder, if you lack hope then your faith may still not keep you from committing those sins.
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#99
(04-10-2021, 11:59 PM)Paul Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 11:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What i was trying to say is that our merits should count for something, why should someone who does a lot of good in life but happens to die before getting to Confession be damned while someone who did a lot of bad in life but dies after getting to Confession be saved? Merit should count and i am sure God could enable a way for people with a lot of merit to seek forgiveness before they are forced to die.

Because that's not how it works. The formula for salvation is very simple. Sanctifying Grace + Death = Heaven.

One who dies in a state of grace goes to heaven. One who dies lacking grace goes to hell. We don't earn heaven through good works, and, unlike the ancient Egyptian belief, God doesn't balance the good and bad and send us to heaven or hell based on that. Every mortal sin destroys grace in our souls, so one is all it takes to go to hell, and every mortal sin is an intentional rejection of God. Maybe God does take merit into account, and delays death for some to allow confession, but we'd never know in this life.
 "Every mortal sin destroys grace in our souls, so one is all it takes to go to hell, and every mortal sin is an intentional rejection of God. " While that is largely true it does not seem to mean that mortal sin is a barrier to salvation, serious as mortal sin is it seems that God makes repentance absolutely possible after commiting it so it is by no means life destroying though it is certainly damaging to one's general relationship with God. 
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(04-11-2021, 06:33 AM)Oliver109 Wrote: While that is largely true it does not seem to mean that mortal sin is a barrier to salvation, serious as mortal sin is it seems that God makes repentance absolutely possible after commiting it so it is by no means life destroying though it is certainly damaging to one's general relationship with God. 

That's not 'largely' true. That is true. What is possible is that one of the conditions of mortal sin is lacking, and what's objectively mortal is not subjectively so. In that case, it's not mortal sin, so my statement holds.

The difference with suicide is that repentance is impossible after death. It's possible, as Padre Pio noted, for one to repent between the bridge and the water, but our Lord's statement tells us that while Judas could have done so, he did not, and was damned. If Pope Francis wants to emphasise God's mercy and that He will forgive even the worst sinners, there are far better examples than Judas. Saul of Tarsus was involved with persecuting and murdering Christians, but God brought him to repentance, and now St Paul is ranked up there with St Peter (who also betrayed our Lord by denying Him). King David's another example. The only reason to 'rehabilitate' Judas is to promote universal salvation.
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