Interesting article : What Is Behind Francis’ Rehabilitation of Judas?
(04-11-2021, 08:14 PM)Paul Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 08:05 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: I have always seen justice to be the same as fairness anyway, being just means giving one what is due based on their merits and demerits so If God is just would he not save everyone if it was possible?

Justice would send us all to Hell. God’s mercy allows some of us to be saved.

You also seem to assume that God directly causes everything, and actively chooses the time we will die. He might permit it, but He doesn’t actively make the bus speed up to run over the mortal sinner on his way to confession.

Is it unjust for a murderer who got away with it for years and has lived a good life since to not go to prison when he’s finally caught? Is that fair?

Likewise, by choosing to commit mortal sin, one accepts the possible consequence that his time may come without confession first. 

Why should God force someone to spend eternity with Him when, by his actions and will, has chosen to reject God?
"Why should God force someone to spend eternity with Him when, by his actions and will, has chosen to reject God?" Because he was not always choosing sin, he may have stumbled occasionally into sin but he ultimately wanted to overcome it but gave in to temptation but had God allowed him to live i am sure that he would eventually asked for forgiveness! 
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(04-11-2021, 08:35 PM)Evangelium Wrote: Why are you sure?
Because i have no concrete evidence presented to the contrary.
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(04-11-2021, 08:20 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Because he was not always choosing sin, he may have stumbled occasionally into sin but he ultimately wanted to overcome it but gave in to temptation but had God allowed him to live i am sure that he would eventually asked for forgiveness!

'He wasn't always choosing murder. He only killed one person, but was a good boy. He loved his children, even if he did kill their mother during that argument. It's not fair to send him to prison!'

And, again, God doesn't always choose how long we live. Sometimes He lets natural events happen.
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(04-11-2021, 08:48 PM)Paul Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 08:20 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Because he was not always choosing sin, he may have stumbled occasionally into sin but he ultimately wanted to overcome it but gave in to temptation but had God allowed him to live i am sure that he would eventually asked for forgiveness!

'He wasn't always choosing murder. He only killed one person, but was a good boy. He loved his children, even if he did kill their mother during that argument. It's not fair to send him to prison!'

And, again, God doesn't always choose how long we live. Sometimes He lets natural events happen.
According to Augustine and Aquinas God has everything planned down to a T, so no events can happen without God's permission. As for your prison analogy you could argue that we all deserve a life sentence because we all have done evil(at least i have anyway) why should God let any people out of jail?
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(04-11-2021, 08:51 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: According to Augustine and Aquinas God has everything planned down to a T, so no events can happen without God's permission. As for your prison analogy you could argue that we all deserve a life sentence because we all have done evil(at least i have anyway) why should God let any people out of jail?

There's a difference between God's active will and God's passive will.

God forgives because He is merciful, but mercy is, by definition, undeserved, and declining to show it isn't unjust. It's just to put the 80-year-old murderer in prison. It's merciful to not do so, but if the judge refuses to give him probation, he does no injustice.
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(04-11-2021, 09:49 PM)Paul Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 08:51 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: According to Augustine and Aquinas God has everything planned down to a T, so no events can happen without God's permission. As for your prison analogy you could argue that we all deserve a life sentence because we all have done evil(at least i have anyway) why should God let any people out of jail?

There's a difference between God's active will and God's passive will.

God forgives because He is merciful, but mercy is, by definition, undeserved, and declining to show it isn't unjust. It's just to put the 80-year-old murderer in prison. It's merciful to not do so, but if the judge refuses to give him probation, he does no injustice.
I get what you are saying, we can hope i think that God will give us all abundant mercy, he is after all our father and it should not be seen as obscene to hope that God will ensure go to the utter lengths to save everyone as i am sure it would benefit us all!
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Are you guys still at this?
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Has anyone here read Dare We Hope that All Men Be Saved by Hans Urs Von Balthasar?
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Big Grin 
(04-11-2021, 10:57 PM)Evangelium Wrote: Has anyone here read Dare We Hope that All Men Be Saved by Hans Urs Von Balthasar?

I thought that was by Bp. Barron.
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No, he wrote the introduction to the most recent edition.

I just ordered it on Amazon.  I want to read Von Balthasar's arguments for this position.
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