Encyclical discussion for everyone else
#11
http://kickstart.org/home/index.html

I like this company. They are European founded, but hire local people to manufacturer and sell the equipment. The good thing about their products is that it helps the African farmer get to the next level in an affordable manner. Typical foreign agriculture aid usually tries to drag the African farmer kicking and screaming into the 21st century  with disastrous results.
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#12
Point 1 - Humanism is a part of Catholicism. Man has dignity and is superior to all other created things simply because he is created in the image and likeness of God. To hate humanism is to hate God and His church. SECULAR humanism, the fundamental doctrine of the naturalists, is opposed to God and is NOT a part of Catholicism. There is nothing in this encyclical that I would call SECULAR humanism.

Point 2 - We can try to take care of our neighbor's soul without also taking care of his body, but this would be foolishness since a man is both body and soul. Go preach to your single mom neighbor but don't offer to help her watch the kids or get groceries or whatever else, and see how far she developes spiritually. It reminds me of tha parable where a son asks his father for bread and his dad gives him a stone and then tells him "God be with you".  In this time of rampant usury, me me me capitalism, economic collapse, the pope is simply trying to bring the world back to sense of selflessness. You have post-modern man, the dominant worldview today, who cares for no one but himself and for nothing but material stuff causing this financial mess, you might call this no love no truth. You have the Secular humanists, the 2nd dominant worldview today, trying to create a false Utopia, trying to nurture people's bodies but neglecting their souls, you might call this love without truth. In this opportune time, you have the Pope fighting to give a better vision, a Christian vision, love and truth, caring for the body and soul of your neihbor.
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#13
I think I understand the concerns of the OP. I think what he's saying is that it seems as if the Pope is somehow ignoring God. It's sort of how liberal Catholics ignore loving God, and promote loving their neighbors at the same time.

We always have to remember that we love our neighbors because we love God. We love them for His sake. Thus, any "human development" is for the greater glory of God. Note that I have only read excerpts from the encyclical, so I don't know exactly what his Holiness is trying to say, so I can't judge it. And honestly, I don't really want to read it because I'd rather read traditional Catholics stuff.
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#14
(07-15-2009, 12:26 PM)AxxeArp Wrote: Point 1 - Humanism is a part of Catholicism. Man has dignity and is superior to all other created things simply because he is created in the image and likeness of God. To hate humanism is to hate God and His church. SECULAR humanism, the fundamental doctrine of the naturalists, is opposed to God and is NOT a part of Catholicism. There is nothing in this encyclical that I would call SECULAR humanism.
Yes, but why is this encyclical not secular in it's presentation?

Quote:Point 2 - We can try to take care of our neighbor's soul without also taking care of his body, but this would be foolishness since a man is both body and soul. Go preach to your single mom neighbor but don't offer to help her watch the kids or get groceries or whatever else, and see how far she developes spiritually. It reminds me of tha parable where a son asks his father for bread and his dad gives him a stone and then tells him "God be with you".  In this time of rampant usury, me me me capitalism, economic collapse, the pope is simply trying to bring the world back to sense of selflessness. You have post-modern man, the dominant worldview today, who cares for no one but himself and for nothing but material stuff causing this financial mess, you might call this no love no truth. You have the Secular humanists, the 2nd dominant worldview today, trying to create a false Utopia, trying to nurture people's bodies but neglecting their souls, you might call this love without truth. In this opportune time, you have the Pope fighting to give a better vision, a Christian vision, love and truth, caring for the body and soul of your neihbor.

This is also true, but the care of your neighbors souls is of greater importance. You cannot concentrate of the corporal works of mercy and forget the spiritual works of mercy. Regardless, BOTH are properly done from supernatural motives.

"Catholic Encyclopedia" Wrote:Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy

Mercy as it is here contemplated is said to be a virtue influencing one's will to have compassion for, and, if possible, to alleviate another's misfortune. It is the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas that although mercy is as it were the spontaneous product of charity, yet it is to be reckoned a special virtue adequately distinguishable from this latter. In fact the Scholastics in cataloguing it consider it to be referable to the quality of justice mainly because, like justice, it controls relations between distinct persons. It is as they say ad alterum. Its motive is the misery which one discerns in another, particularly in so far as this condition is deemed to be, in some sense at least, involuntary. Obviously the necessity which is to be succoured can be either of body or soul. Hence it is customary to enumerate both corporal and spiritual works of mercy.

The traditional enumeration of the corporal works of mercy is as follows:

To feed the hungry;
To give drink to the thirsty;
To clothe the naked;
To harbour the harbourless;
To visit the sick;
To ransom the captive;
To bury the dead.

The spiritual works of mercy are:

To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.

It will be seen from these divisions that the works of mercy practically coincide with the various forms of almsgiving. It is thus that St. Thomas regards them. The word alms of course is a corruption of the Greek elenmosyne (mercy). The doing of works of mercy is not merely a matter of exalted counsel; there is as well a strict precept imposed both by the natural and the positive Divine law enjoining their performance. That the natural law enjoins works of mercy is based upon the principle that we are to do to others as we would have them do to us.

The Divine command is set forth in the most stringent terms by Christ, and the failure to comply with it is visited with the supreme penalty of eternal damnation (Matthew 25:41): "Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, in everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in; naked, and you covered me not; sick and in prison, and you did not visit me", etc. Here it is true there is mention directly and explicitly of only the corporal works of mercy. As, however, the spiritual works of mercy deal with a distress whose relief is even more imperative as well as more effective for the grand purpose of man's creation, the injunction must be supposed to extend to them also. Besides there are the plain references of Christ to such works as fraternal correction (Matthew 18:15) as well as the forgiveness of injuries (Matthew 6:14). It has to be remembered however that the precept is an affirmative one, that is, it is of the sort which is always binding but not always operative, for lack of matter or occasion or fitting circumstances. It obliges, as the theologians say, semper sed non pro semper. Thus in general it may be said that the determination of its actual obligatory force in a given case depends largely on the degree of distress to be aided, and the capacity or condition of the one whose duty in the matter is in question.

There are easily recognizable limitations which the precept undergoes in practice so far as the performance of the corporal works of mercy are concerned. These are treated in the article on Alms and Almsgiving. Likewise the law imposing spiritual works of mercy is subject in individual instances to important reservations. For example, it may easily happen that an altogether special measure of tact and prudence, or, at any rate, some definite superiority is required for the discharge of the oftentimes difficult task of fraternal correction. Similarly to instruct the ignorant, counsel the doubtful, and console the sorrowing is not always within the competency of every one. To bear wrongs patiently, to forgive offences willingly, and to pray for the living and the dead are things from which on due occasion no one may dispense himself on the pleas that he has not some special array of gifts required for their observance. They are evidently within the reach of all. [size=10pt]It must not be forgotten that the works of mercy demand more than a humanitarian basis if they are to serve as instruments in bringing about our eternal salvation. The proper motive is indispensable and this must be one drawn from the supernatural order[/size].
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#15
TIMOOSE Wrote:My take is this we can do this in the Light of Christ's commandment better without these corrupt NGO's and crappy National Governments. There are better ways to get this done. Every thing which is Catholic and is charity is better than anything these Governments and NGO's can do.
  Before Caritas in Veritate, this was the social doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Rerum Novarum Wrote:But, when what necessity demands has been supplied, and one's standing fairly taken thought for, it becomes a duty to give to the indigent out of what remains over. "Of that which remaineth, give alms."[14] It is duty, not of justice (save in extreme cases), but of Christian charity—a duty not enforced by human law.
.....
Her (the Church) desire is that the poor, for example, should rise above poverty and wretchedness, and better their condition in life; and for this she makes a strong endeavor. By the fact that she calls men to virtue and forms them to its practice she promotes this in no slight degree. Christian morality, when adequately and completely practiced, leads of itself to temporal prosperity, for it merits the blessing of that God who is the source of all blessings; it powerfully restrains the greed of possession and the thirst for pleasure—twin plagues, which too often make a man who is void of self-restraint miserable in the midst of abundance;[23] it makes men supply for the lack of means through economy, teaching them to be content with frugal living, and further, keeping them out of the reach of those vices which devour not small incomes merely, but large fortunes, and dissipate many a goodly inheritance.

29. The Church, moreover, intervenes directly in behalf of the poor, by setting on foot and maintaining many associations which she knows to be efficient for the relief of poverty. Herein, again, she has always succeeded so well as to have even extorted the praise of her enemies. Such was the ardor of brotherly love among the earliest Christians that numbers of those who were in better circumstances despoiled themselves of their possessions in order to relieve their brethren; whence "neither was there any one needy among them."[24] To the order of deacons, instituted in that very intent, was committed by the Apostles the charge of the daily doles; and the Apostle Paul, though burdened with the solicitude of all the churches, hesitated not to undertake laborious journeys in order to carry the alms of the faithful to the poorer Christians. Tertullian calls these contributions, given voluntarily by Christians in their assemblies, deposits of piety, because, to cite his own words, they were employed "in feeding the needy, in burying them, in support of youths and maidens destitute of means and deprived of their parents, in the care of the aged, and the relief of the shipwrecked."[25]

30 Thus, by degrees, came into existence the patrimony which the Church has guarded with religious care as the inheritance of the poor. Nay, in order to spare them the shame of begging, the Church has provided aid for the needy. The common Mother of rich and poor has aroused everywhere the heroism of charity, and has established congregations of religious and many other useful institutions for help and mercy, so that hardly any kind of suffering could exist which was not afforded relief. At the present day many there are who, like the heathen of old, seek to blame and condemn the Church for such eminent charity. They would substitute in its stead a system of relief organized by the State. But no human expedients will ever make up for the devotedness and self-sacrifice of Christian charity. Charity, as a virtue, pertains to the Church; for virtue it is not, unless it be drawn from the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ; and whosoever turns his back on the Church cannot be near to Christ.
To say that Caritas in Vertitate is in agreement with this, is to be willfully blind.  This new Encyclical is a catastrophe.
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#16
Oh please no, please stay in the other thread James02, *puh-leeze*

:incense:
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#17
It will cost you a beer. 
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#18
(07-15-2009, 08:14 PM)James02 Wrote: It will cost you a beer. 

Import or domestic. I like lambics, you?
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#19
Shiner
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#20
The new encyclicle is garbage I wouldnt use it to wipe my dogs ass even. Its humanist to the core nothing Catholic about it. All it is is improve mans social status on earth. I pray to God that just once as I am ony 27 I'll get to see a Pope who writes Catholic things on the necessity of saving souls. The encyclicle could have been about saving all the souls of the 3rd worlds pagans by way of missionary activity and calling on Catholics to support a fund for that or something. Instead its a Chicken in every pot and a silver pot at that for every tree worshipper who lives in a dung heap on Earth on my dime. No thank you Mr Pope you can go peddle your marxism elseware. Most Conciliar Popes encyclicles are just a waste of time but this is dangerous. I especialy love Benedicts Orewellian one world financial center that realy made me jump for joy. I bet the meeting between Obama and Pope went great I betcha the Pope has an Obama 08 bumper sticker on the Pope mobile. God send us a Catholic to occupy the Petrine office. :pray:
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