Aspergers and ADHD
(07-27-2009, 04:09 PM)Melita Wrote: Unless somebody is diagnosed as having these sorts of syndromes etc. by a professional, lists of symptoms/attributes aren't all that helpful. Otherwise, it just comes down to differences in personality and the way we each live our lives; which is all this seems to be about anyway.

Yes. A list of symptoms of an NT would seem just as dysfunctional. How does one describe "empathy" without making one sound neurotic? Yeah, it is totally normal for people to feel the same feelings as someone else for no reason. How do NTs function with such a handicap?

The only real problem is when it negatively affects lives, (criteria C) and requires extra assistance.

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All right, you guys have succeeded in confusing me further.

Rosarium talks about not needing or wanting social interaction. Quis asks me how I got the idea that AS folks don't need or want social interaction. Our favorite online encyclopedia says aspies DO want friends, etc., but don't know how to interact with people because they can't read non-verbal cues. So what is it?

Rosarium, I didn't mean to demean anyone. When I referred to situations in which people need family to get along, I was thinking about a society in which most people were farmers and had to get married and have children in order to run their farms. Someone who has little to no desire for contact with others and doesn't know how to interact with them is obviously going to be at a disadvantage.

As for the repetitive, obsessive behavior, I have read this aspie trait described over and over again. I didn't pull it out of my sleeve. Would someone care to tell me what this looks like in real life and why it isn't interfering with the obsessive person's survival? Am I wrong in assuming it's like the notorious obsessive/repetitive behavior of someone with autism?

I don't see why in a primitive situation it would be the aspies teaching people how to grow food and make clothes. What does a computer geek become in a primitive situation?

I wonder if the problem is that there are clusters of personality types and behavior disorders that share traits and are being inaccurately clumped together under the heading "Asperger's." For instance, VoxPopuli's description of his son doesn't sound like any aspie person I've ever heard of except for not wanting to meet people's eyes and not understanding the importance of certain kinds of behavior.
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(07-27-2009, 04:35 PM)Satori Wrote: All right, you guys have succeeded in confusing me further.

Rosarium talks about not needing or wanting social interaction. Quis asks me how I got the idea that AS folks don't need or want social interaction. Our favorite online encyclopedia says aspies DO want friends, etc., but don't know how to interact with people because they can't read non-verbal cues. So what is it?
Sorry for the confusion. It is just different, so it is hard for anyone who is not a part of it to truly understand. AS usually involves a different sort, especially for younger people.

AS does not require the same type of interaction as NT and they seem to need much less.

Quote:Rosarium, I didn't mean to demean anyone. When I referred to situations in which people need family to get along, I was thinking about a society in which most people were farmers and had to get married and have children in order to run their farms. Someone who has little to no desire for contact with others and doesn't know how to interact with them is obviously going to be at a disadvantage.
Well, a classical autistic case would be a real problem. Many people with AS get married and have their own businesses. An adult with AS is different from a child with AS just like NTs. Also, a person in those societies does not need other family, there are plenty of other things to do. Since AS seems largely genetic, it has somehow survived since it first manifested so it must be useful to some degree. People with AS do not have a schizoid personality.

Also, AS doesn't change anything else, so everything else (including the mind) works fine. People with AS have normal or better verbal skills and can communicate best that way. The part about not knowing how to interact only applies to the inbuilt social mechanisms of NTs. Most NTs are more clueless about why they do things than AS is. NT does just them automatically, whereas AS doesn't. Take facial expressions for instance. Most people with AS do not have complex facial expressions (laugh, cry, smile, scowl) and many times they are deliberate so a person with AS may not have an "appropriate" facial expression for an NT to understand. People with AS normally do not use facial expressions for communication (of others or self) and this has to be learned. People with AS do not normally have trouble communicating to NTs, it is just that NTs get a lot of wrong information because their minds are set up to communicate with other NTs. It isn't a choice, and it isn't essential (we are communicating here just fine) so how is it a necessity except being needed for trouble free communication with NTs. Also, since AS doesn't process information the same way, it can be stressful to do this too much. Instead of automatically knowing and doing it, it has to be done more conciously. How would you feel if every facial expression you do you had to do willfully? You'd probably go out of your mind soon as most facial expressions (mostly around the eyes) is involuntary.

Quote:As for the repetitive, obsessive behavior, I have read this aspie trait described over and over again. I didn't pull it out of my sleeve. Would someone care to tell me what this looks like in real life and why it isn't interfering with the obsessive person's survival? Am I wrong in assuming it's like the notorious obsessive/repetitive behavior of someone with autism?
It isn't a tic or an obsession. It just seems that way to NTs. It can be different in all people, but an example could just be a small movement like stroking a beard. For adults, you probably won't notice it. It is just a relaxing and repetitive act done by habit and it can be controlled rather easily. Perhaps they form as a result of stress or as a way to relax.

Quote:I don't see why in a primitive situation it would be the aspies teaching people how to grow food and make clothes. What does a computer geek become in a primitive situation?
In less complex social structures, AS becomes less of a potential problem. It is mostly in complex social structures does it get noticed, otherwise, it is just a personal difference.

Quote:I wonder if the problem is that there are clusters of personality types and behavior disorders that share traits and are being inaccurately clumped together under the heading "Asperger's." For instance, VoxPopuli's description of his son doesn't sound like any aspie person I've ever heard of except for not wanting to meet people's eyes and not understanding the importance of certain kinds of behavior.
Yes, there is confusion with the term smetimes. With young people, it can be confusing as well (you get less feedback) so it may change. There are three braod classifications, all slightly different. There are Asperger's Syndrom,  High Functioning Autism (watch "Rain Man", very good acting) and  Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (I love that name...). Asperger's is commonly placed on the autistic spectrum, but I (and others) do not think it is connected to Autism itself.

One interesting theory makes the connection between "male" characteristics and AS. An AS is an extreme male personality (this is supported by the males representing the vast majority of all cases). If you take the difference between a typical man and woman, and make that gap even bigger, you see Asperger's.
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I searched youtube for some videos of normal people with AS (meaning, no extra problems) and I found this:

For NT's, watch the eyes ;)



You'll see she is fully functional (I didn't watch the entire video) and keep in mind is an individual. The sensitivity she mentions is common in people with AS, however, I don't think that is really part of AS, but rather a side effect of stress for people with AS.
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so ros. your sayin you are considered asperder? don't mean to pry but when i was reading your posts u seem to suggest that? or maybe u said so but i missed as sometimes u know i skim and stuff. especially allot of psychobabble i kinda skim u know.
2 percent it i suppose.
dunno what that makes me but i do tend to always look people in the face and eyes and stuff a bit intense  the eyes being windas to the soul and all. im no good in customer relations either. bit vulgar at times they say
sip
anyhoo
sip sip
ahhhh
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(07-27-2009, 07:31 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: so ros. your sayin you are considered asperder? don't mean to pry but when i was reading your posts u seem to suggest that? or maybe u said so but i missed as sometimes u know i skim and stuff. especially allot of psychobabble i kinda skim u know.
2 percent it i suppose.
It is a long thread so you aren't expected to read it all :) Yes, I am an Asperger's Personality.

Quote:dunno what that makes me but i do tend to always look people in the face and eyes and stuff a bit intense  the eyes being windas to the soul and all. im no good in customer relations either. bit vulgar at times they say
That isn't Asperger's, that is called aggressive :)

The eyes are not the windows to the soul for people with Asperger's, they are optical organs :)
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(07-27-2009, 07:31 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: im no good in customer relations either. bit vulgar at times they say

You tend to get that reputation when you throw paper airplanes at bankers.  :laughing:
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LOL
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still all of this doesnt help a father who never heard of As, whos first child has it,( I thought he was just going through an Arshole phase, so understandebly I was sever about the way he was treating others)  and this father spent almost 15 years apparently alienating him to the degree he wont spend more  then 30 seconds talking to me. Now as far as I can tell AS or not my son is in a state of mortal sin for dishonering his parents, ( I dont care about honor for my self, I just dont want my son to die in mortal sin), how can I get through to him! (Also remember he adamantly denys haveing AS in any form) Is there some clever or AS way of getting him simply to sit with me and hash out, undo and reset our relationship...or is this simply my cross. :( (Im not looking for sympathy, but practical advice)
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as harsh as this may sound.
the world will hammer him into shape. he will either swallow his shit and deal with it or he will fall and end up on street or he will die. maybe all three. really he may need time to go and get banged up.  u know u never know what you lose till you lose it. maybe when hes sitting sobbing his eye's out under a bridge or in prison beside bubba or alone in a fancy condo a successful programmer loneliness and what a prick hes been to hes da and ma, those tears may get through to him. might take years. might never get through.
u did your part. the best u could. u could of done better sure like any man. but now your son is a man and its his turn for the world to grind. and the worlds real good at grinding asshole kids weather they have this thing or not. before you toss his ass out have a beer with him. even if he spits in your face because by the sound  of it hes gonna need it. even if he doesn't want to face the eyes of the world the world will force its cold eyes down his throat. its a mean place. it really is.
as harsh as it sounds.
the truth hurts.
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