From Father Z's: How Liturgical Reform was done.
#11
(10-15-2009, 12:35 PM)DarkKnight Wrote: Stories like this make Fr. Malachi Martin look more credible all of the time.

Part one of "The Final Conclave" presents a very different Paul VI.  One who was very aware of the direction he wanted to take the Church and was willing to sacrifice virtually all of the Church's traditions in order to accomplish an active humanism of the Church in the world.   PaulVI's strategy was to hold the line on only the bare minimum of moral truths, liquidate traditionalists  (destroy LeFebvre)  and foster a conservative base that would hold back wild liberals without requiring papal authority to boot them out of the Church officially.

Paul VI was probably decieved by Bugnini on some points, but he was willing to let it go in favor of his larger plan for the Church.  

It's long been a traditionalist hope and a firm conviction of conservatives that the recent Popes were really traditional but were "decieved" or "did not know" etc. etc.  ad nauseum.  But that's pretty much of a myth conjured up to provide cover for the Popes.

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#12
(10-15-2009, 02:14 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
(10-15-2009, 01:47 PM)OCLittleFlower Wrote: b) Paul VI was stupid.

c) Paul VI was a heretic.

d) Paul VI was chicken.

Probably a combination of all of the above. Pope Paul VI was an extremely weak man who is said to have spent nights crying because he had no clue what to do.
Then there is the evil side of the man who is reported to have been a homosexual who was arrested in plain clothes as a bishop one night by a police officer and other homosexual stories.

I will not be surprised if Pope Paul VI is declared an official heretic by a future traditional Pope in the next 30-50 years over the Novus Ordo.

I would tend to agree with you that he does seem to have been quite weak. The other stuff not so much. As far as him being declared a heretic... if he was may be in about 150 years. Or if it comes before that at Judgment Day.
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#13
(10-15-2009, 02:14 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
(10-15-2009, 01:47 PM)OCLittleFlower Wrote: b) Paul VI was stupid.

c) Paul VI was a heretic.

d) Paul VI was chicken.

Then there is the evil side of the man who is reported to have been a homosexual who was arrested in plain clothes as a bishop one night by a police officer and other homosexual stories.

That is a vile rumor to spread about anyone, much less a priest, much less a Pope.  I remind you that the rumors about Paul VI's sexuality only appeared in fiercely anti-Catholic tracts.  Yet, you spread them as if they're sure truths?

A few weeks ago, I was fortunate to read Robert Louis Stevenson's defense of Fr. Damien de Veuster (now Saint).  It so happened that after this holy man's death, a Protestant pastor from Hawaii published an open letter in the press spreading rumors about Fr. Damien's character, one of which being that Fr. Damien contracted leporsy by having sexual intercourse with another leper.  It was Stevenson (a Presbyterian), who came to the priest's defense in a long letter.  I think the last few paragraphs of that letter (in which he's condemning the pastor for spreading the forementioned rumor), is quite relevant to the can of worms you just opened.

Robert Louis Stevenson Wrote:Damien WAS NOT A PURE MAN IN HIS RELATIONS WITH WOMEN, ETC

How do you know that? Is this the nature of conversation in that house on Beretania Street which the cabman envied, driving past? - racy details of the misconduct of the poor peasant priest, toiling under the cliffs of Molokai?

Many have visited the station before me; they seem not to have heard the rumour. When I was there I heard many shocking tales, for my informants were men speaking with the plainness of the laity; and I heard plenty of complaints of Damien. Why was this never mentioned? and how came it to you in the retirement of your clerical parlour?

But I must not even seem to deceive you. This scandal, when I read it in your letter, was not new to me. I had heard it once before; and I must tell you how. There came to Samoa a man from Honolulu; he, in a public-house on the beach, volunteered the statement that Damien had "contracted the disease from having connection with the female lepers"; and I find a joy in telling you how the report was welcomed in a public-house. A man sprang to his feet; I am not at liberty to give his name, but from what I heard I doubt if you would care to have him to dinner in Beretania Street. "You miserable little -------" (here is a word I dare not print, it would so shock your ears). "You miserable little ------," he cried, "if the story were a thousand times true, can't you see you are a million times a lower ----- for daring to repeat it?" I wish it could be told of you that when the report reached you in your house, perhaps after family worship, you had found in your soul enough holy anger to receive it with the same expressions; ay, even with that one which I dare not print; it would not need to have been blotted away, like Uncle Toby's oath, by the tears of the recording angel; it would have been counted to you for your brightest righteousness. But you have deliberately chosen the part of the man from Honolulu, and you have played it with improvements of your own. The man from Honolulu - miserable, leering creature - communicated the tale to a rude knot of beach-combing drinkers in a public-house, where (I will so far agree with your temperance opinions) man is not always at his noblest; and the man from Honolulu had himself been drinking - drinking, we may charitably fancy, to excess. It was to your "Dear Brother, the Reverend H. B. Gage," that you chose to communicate the sickening story; and the blue ribbon which adorns your portly bosom forbids me to allow you the extenuating plea that you were drunk when it was done. Your "dear brother" - a brother indeed - made haste to deliver up your letter (as a means of grace, perhaps) to the religious papers; where, after many months, I found and read and wondered at it; and whence I have now reproduced it for the wonder of others. And you and your dear brother have, by this cycle of operations, built up a contrast very edifying to examine in detail. The man whom you would not care to have to dinner, on the one side; on the other, the Reverend Dr. Hyde and the Reverend H. B. Gage: the Apia bar- room, the Honolulu manse.

But I fear you scarce appreciate how you appear to your fellow-men; and to bring it home to you, I will suppose your story to be true. I will suppose - and God forgive me for supposing it - that Damien faltered and stumbled in his narrow path of duty; I will suppose that, in the horror of his isolation, perhaps in the fever of incipient disease, he, who was doing so much more than he had sworn, failed in the letter of his priestly oath - he, who was so much a better man than either you or me, who did what we have never dreamed of daring - he too tasted of our common frailty. "O, Iago, the pity of it!" The least tender should be moved to tears; the most incredulous to prayer. And all that you could do was to pen your letter to the Reverend H. B. Gage!

Is it growing at all clear to you what a picture you have drawn of your own heart? I will try yet once again to make it clearer. You had a father: suppose this tale were about him, and some informant brought it to you, proof in hand: I am not making too high an estimate of your emotional nature when I suppose you would regret the circumstance? that you would feel the tale of frailty the more keenly since it shamed the author of your days? and that the last thing you would do would be to publish it in the religious press? Well, the man who tried to do what Damien did, is my father, and the father of the man in the Apia bar, and the father of all who love goodness; and he was your father too, if God had given you grace to see it.

Perhaps Paul VI was a weak Pope or overly trusting.  You're more then entitled to that opinion, and certainly there's plenty of public acts to justify your views.  However, I seriously doubt you could provide anything substantial regarding this aspect of Paul VI's private life (and I googled this rumor, and came across the TIA article on the site-which 'conveniently' doesn't list a name of Paul VI's supposed lover-a common trait of fabricated stories).  And even if it were true, how is it even relevant to the three points you were originally commenting on?  Does Paul VI's sexual orientation make him stupid, a heretic, or chicken?
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#14
MeaMaximaCulpa Wrote:Does Paul VI's sexual orientation make him stupid, a heretic, or chicken?
While it may not render him a heretic or stupid, it would leave him open to blackmail and disgrace. That is why officials with SSA's were considered security risks. Not necessarily due to their specific moral weakness but because it left them open to exploitation.
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#15
(10-15-2009, 03:01 PM)MeaMaximaCulpa Wrote: And even if it were true, how is it even relevant to the three points you were originally commenting on?  Does Paul VI's sexual orientation make him stupid, a heretic, or chicken?
His sexual orientation would make him unfit for the priesthood.

Not only would he had been a man not meant to receive holy orders, but as priest, bishop, and Pope, he was in mortal sin without any grace.
These types of sin lead directly to apostasy. Sodomy is even worse than sexual sin, because it is one of the four sins that cries to heaven for vengeance.
The lifestyle of Pope Paul VI led the Church to have a Pope with a loss of faith. Pope Paul VI was led to something worse than heresy, which is apostasy.
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#16
I don't know if this supposed conversation took place, but:

According to Randy Engel in her book The Rite of Sodomy, which is about 1300 pages long and extensively researched, Pope Paul VI was indeed a homosexual. There have been Popes in the past who were sexual degenerates of one sort or another, so if true, it wouldn't be a first. It would also be one of the reasons why he was such a poor administrator, if others had this on him.

Annibale Bugnini boasted in his writings that he would place documents in front of Pope Paul VI, and the latter would sign them without having read them. 

I don't know if Pope Paul VI will be declared an official heretic or an anti-Pope by a future Pope, but I do think both he and Pope John Paul II will, at the very least, be declared material heretics for their actions. 
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#17
(10-15-2009, 12:55 PM)maldon Wrote: Only a retarded pope, a blackmailed pope, or an evil pope could have had this conversation and DONE NOTHING.

Or a weak man who couldn't bring himself to confront much of his own hierarchy and go against the societal trends of the time.

Or a self-indulgent man who desired the accolades he would get for modernizing the Mass.

Or a naive man who couldn't believe things were really as bad as he was hearing, and chose to ignore it.

Or an indecisive man who hoped nothing too bad would come of it.
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#18
(10-15-2009, 12:55 PM)maldon Wrote: or Paul VI was an out and out liar, arch-heretic, or retarded. 

Well we are talking Paul VI here the man who destroyed the Mass and began the destruction of the Church which JPII continued so joyfully.
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#19
(10-15-2009, 01:47 PM)OCLittleFlower Wrote: There seems to be several posibilities.

a) This is all a pack of lies.

b) Paul VI was stupid.

c) Paul VI was a heretic.

d) Paul VI was chicken.

e) This is all an evil pack of lies.

Not necissarily many people comment on how timid Paul VI was and his singning of the Vatican II documents that were heretical kinda makes him a heretic.
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#20
(10-15-2009, 12:55 PM)maldon Wrote: Only a retarded pope, a blackmailed pope, or an evil pope could have had this conversation and DONE NOTHING.
So take your pick.
.
Again were talking Paul VI here so all of the above.
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