Was surprised to find a Bishop saying mass today.
#31
(11-11-2009, 05:58 PM)petrelton Wrote: One so-called modernist passage in the CCC does not make the whole CCC modernist.

It makes it unreliable.

petrelton Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 09:46 AM)Clare Wrote: One modernist passage in the CCC undermines the whole CCC.
Incredible. So are you saying that if your priest teaches something which you perceive to be modernist then his whole authority as a priest is undermined.

Well, I expect more from a Catechism than I do from a priest. I should be able to refer to the Catechism if the priest says something unorthodox and be sure to get the correct teaching.

Quote:Besides the catechism is absolutely packed with orthodox teaching. Not just one passage as you claim

I'm sure it does. But it is unreliable, and it only takes a few drops of poison to ruin a whole bottle.

Quote:
(11-11-2009, 09:46 AM)Clare Wrote: The CCC has modernism in it. Para 840 (IIRC) for example.
This is not heresy, nor is it modernist except by your own judgemental interpretation. It is a statement of objective fact. Both Jews and Christians are anticipating the advent of a messiah. How can this be modernist if its the truth?

It is not objective fact. It is utter rubbish. Jews and Muslims reject the Trinity, and therefore do not worship the Trinity, and therefore do not worship the true God that Christians do. And to compare the Jews' waiting for the first coming with Christians' waiting for the second coming, like they are remotely similar, is an insult to our Lord. It's like saying He needn't have bothered the first time.

Quote:Even if you do not agree with paragraph 840, this is not grounds to reject the entire book.

Look at the index of citations. It is packed full of Vatican II references. When Vatican II is put in its proper place, as it will be one day, I am sure, then that renders any book which relies so heavily upon it as pretty useless.
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#32
(11-11-2009, 02:49 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote: One NO priest I know speaks of purgatory every All Souls day.  I went to a TLM by the same priest this year and there wasn't even a homily!  I was so disappointed!

As for Catholic funerals, I believe the NO is definitely lacking.  When my father-in-law died, there never was a mention of praying for his soul, nor at my husband's grandmother's funeral.  Everyone told my kids that they were in heaven!!  I am trying to undo that damage, but am having trouble knowing how to teach my kids about purgatory.  I am told that it is unkind and will scare them, that I need to reassure them and there will be plenty of time to teach purgatory later! >:( 

Where can I find some good materials for teaching my kids about purgatory?  BTW, I have also told my kids that while I try my best, I KNOW I will need purification in the next life and if they don't pray for me I will ask God for permission to come back and haunt them.. ;D

I also just discovered the Dies Irie (or however you spell it -I don't know my Latin!). [b][Dies Iræ]   Why did they ever get rid of this!?  It is right and true and beautiful and powerful!  If everyone had to hear that on a semi-regular basis, perhaps people would have a sense of sin again![/b]

Annibale Bugnini, father of the Novus Ordo, had this to say: "They got rid of texts that smacked of a negative spirituality inherited from the Middle Ages. Thus they removed such familiar and even beloved texts as the Libera me, Domine, the Dies Iræ, and others that overemphasized judgment, fear, and despair. These they replaced with texts urging Christian hope and arguably giving more effective expression to faith in the resurrection."
What can we expect when the whole intention behind the NO was to remove Catholic doctrine??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dies_Irae
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#33
(11-12-2009, 12:56 PM)AlanF Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 02:49 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote: I also just discovered the Dies Irie (or however you spell it -I don't know my Latin!). [b][Dies Iræ]   Why did they ever get rid of this!?  It is right and true and beautiful and powerful!  If everyone had to hear that on a semi-regular basis, perhaps people would have a sense of sin again![/b]

Annibale Bugnini, father of the Novus Ordo, had this to say: "They got rid of texts that smacked of a negative spirituality inherited from the Middle Ages. Thus they removed such familiar and even beloved texts as the Libera me, Domine, the Dies Iræ, and others that overemphasized judgment, fear, and despair. These they replaced with texts urging Christian hope and arguably giving more effective expression to faith in the resurrection."
What can we expect when the whole intention behind the NO was to remove Catholic doctrine??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dies_Irae
Thanks for the Wikki quote and help.  I try to balance both thoughts.  I don't wish to live in fear all the time thinking only of the day of judgement, but if you don't think of it sometimes human nature is weak and will give in to temptation and sin.  I want my focus to be serving God out of love and gratitude for all that he has given me.  Sometimes I need reminders that God isn't all soft and fuzzy.  He is Almighty,  yet knowing that God is merciful.  Doesn't separating one from the other leave you with a distorted picture of God?
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#34
(11-11-2009, 05:58 PM)petrelton Wrote: One so-called modernist passage in the CCC does not make the whole CCC modernist. 


"But the fact that a fault is subtle does not excuse it in the least. Nay. It simply makes it all the more dangerous."--Petrelton on Archbishop LeFebvre.

There seems to be a double standard at work here.
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#35
(11-12-2009, 01:48 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 05:58 PM)petrelton Wrote: One so-called modernist passage in the CCC does not make the whole CCC modernist. 


"But the fact that a fault is subtle does not excuse it in the least. Nay. It simply makes it all the more dangerous."--Petrelton on Archbishop LeFebvre.

There seems to be a double standard at work here.

Great Observation!  You can't have it both ways.  +1
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#36
Well found, Gerard.  :)
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#37
Hoisted by your own Petard :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
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#38
(11-12-2009, 01:41 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote:
(11-12-2009, 12:56 PM)AlanF Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 02:49 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote: I also just discovered the Dies Irie (or however you spell it -I don't know my Latin!). [b][Dies Iræ]   Why did they ever get rid of this!?  It is right and true and beautiful and powerful!  If everyone had to hear that on a semi-regular basis, perhaps people would have a sense of sin again![/b]

Annibale Bugnini, father of the Novus Ordo, had this to say: "They got rid of texts that smacked of a negative spirituality inherited from the Middle Ages. Thus they removed such familiar and even beloved texts as the Libera me, Domine, the Dies Iræ, and others that overemphasized judgment, fear, and despair. These they replaced with texts urging Christian hope and arguably giving more effective expression to faith in the resurrection."
What can we expect when the whole intention behind the NO was to remove Catholic doctrine??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dies_Irae
Thanks for the Wikki quote and help.  I try to balance both thoughts.  I don't wish to live in fear all the time thinking only of the day of judgement, but if you don't think of it sometimes human nature is weak and will give in to temptation and sin.  I want my focus to be serving God out of love and gratitude for all that he has given me.  Sometimes I need reminders that God isn't all soft and fuzzy.  He is Almighty,  yet knowing that God is merciful.  Doesn't separating one from the other leave you with a distorted picture of God?

I agree. But I think they're hard to separate. We, as creatures of God, have a duty to love and serve God and cooperate with his grace in order to save our souls. If we don't our souls will have no sanctifying grace and continue to rot and fester, because of their fallen state, and will rightfully be thrown into Hell at the end of time for all eternity. So because we're fallen we deserve to go to Hell anyway and that's where we were going, but God in His mercy will save us, if we're willing to be saved. That's how I see it anyway.
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#39
<(((><  for Gerard for that.
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#40
(11-12-2009, 05:07 PM)AlanF Wrote:
(11-12-2009, 01:41 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote:
(11-12-2009, 12:56 PM)AlanF Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 02:49 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote: I also just discovered the Dies Irie (or however you spell it -I don't know my Latin!). [b][Dies Iræ]   Why did they ever get rid of this!?  It is right and true and beautiful and powerful!  If everyone had to hear that on a semi-regular basis, perhaps people would have a sense of sin again![/b]

Annibale Bugnini, father of the Novus Ordo, had this to say: "They got rid of texts that smacked of a negative spirituality inherited from the Middle Ages. Thus they removed such familiar and even beloved texts as the Libera me, Domine, the Dies Iræ, and others that overemphasized judgment, fear, and despair. These they replaced with texts urging Christian hope and arguably giving more effective expression to faith in the resurrection."
What can we expect when the whole intention behind the NO was to remove Catholic doctrine??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dies_Irae
Thanks for the Wikki quote and help.  I try to balance both thoughts.  I don't wish to live in fear all the time thinking only of the day of judgement, but if you don't think of it sometimes human nature is weak and will give in to temptation and sin.   I want my focus to be serving God out of love and gratitude for all that he has given me.  Sometimes I need reminders that God isn't all soft and fuzzy.  He is Almighty,  yet knowing that God is merciful.   Doesn't separating one from the other leave you with a distorted picture of God?

I agree. But I think they're hard to separate. We, as creatures of God, have a duty to love and serve God and cooperate with his grace in order to save our souls. If we don't our souls will have no sanctifying grace and continue to rot and fester, because of their fallen state, and will rightfully be thrown into Hell at the end of time for all eternity. So because we're fallen we deserve to go to Hell anyway and that's where we were going, but God in His mercy will save us, if we're willing to be saved. That's how I see it anyway.

I like the way you phrased that.  I will take that and ponder it for awhile.  Maybe that will keep me from going to one extreme or the other.
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