Post V2 Catholic Evangelization
#21
I can hardly wait...
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#22
Thanks for the sarchasm, Vetus Ordo. You’re a real mench.

CrusaderKing Wrote:JW's and Mormons aren't Christian, they are cults. The Protestants aren't true churches, as the current Pontiff has said.

True, but I was being as liberal as I could. In counting groups other than Catholics under the umbrella of a broader – note the “quotes” – “Christianity,” I was trying to be as generous with percentages as I could.* Not counting groups like Protestants and Mormons, the gross numbers of Christians dwindle to 1/6 or 1/7 of the world population. Not neglecting the strenuous efforts of missionaries, the numbers are unimpressive for a group that’s been at work for two millennia.

• Then, again, the various sects mentioned would not exist historically if Catholicism did not precede them.



Quote:Practicing Catholics usually at a hefty percentage rate believe in the Real Presence, but few who go to the Novus Ordo go to Confession.

It depends on the area. I’ve been to Confession when I was the only guy in line, and I’ve been to places where I have had to literally wait on line for an hour for a free priest. I’ll grant that the sense of sin is not what it was, but that owes more to broader cultural forces than specifically to the Council.*

• The effects of affluences and the influences of modern, popular psychology deserve much of the credit for this.



Quote:Go to your average Novus Ordo parish, and you'll find few families headed by couples 40 years old and under who have more than three kids. This could be in some cases due to issues like infertility, but more often it's more than likely due to the fact they are practicing contraception.

No debate there.



Quote:Relatively few priests who say the NOM preach against contraception in their homilies.

True, but I have to say I cannot recall an SSPX priest ever doing the same after years of listening to dozens of them at Mass. There are some topics which are delicate, and many priests might consider this one of them. More preaching on the “life issues” is needed all around. 



Quote:And as far as post V2 evangelization, that is really nill these days.  We have been dealt with a major guilt complex, and evangelization in the post-conciliar Church is dealt with hesitantly, if not at all

Evangelization is dealt with all the time. Just search the Vatican’s website. It can be further argued that the African synod of last fall – the second in history, if memory serves – was motivated with the continued evangelization of the continent in mind.



Quote:You keep conflating the terms "Catholic" and "Christian" which is at times misleading. Catholics are Christians, Orthodox are schismatics, Protestants do not belong to true churches, so any conversion to any Protestant denomination by anyone in Africa or Asia only means they are getting an incomplete and many times false messages.

See above.



Quote:As far as thinking outside the West, you sidestep the fact the Church has lost many adherents in Latin America, and even the Philippines is having a vocations crisis.

Yes, but I fail to see how that is exclusively the failure of the Church of the last fifty years as opposed to the Church of the last 100, 200 or 500 years.



As for the much-bemoaned survey of Catholics showing the apparently abysmal orthodoxy of many, the Catholic Answers Forum has done a treatment of this subject:  http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=210649

While adult catechism definitively needs work, the way the poll was worded was especially confusing. There is more than a good chance that many of us FishEaters would – according to set-up of the survey – disbelieve in the Real Presence.

Don’t ever trust polls, their lies, lies, lies.
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#23
I and my business partners have traveled a lot in Latin America.  The Catholic Church no longer exists there.  That is not an exaggeration.  We have lost most of the Catholics in Latin America.  And every year, the remaining "Catholics" (who don't believe in the real presence) convert to Mormons and Prots.  Vat. II and the N.O. have literally dragged hundreds of millions of Catholics to hell.
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#24
(03-21-2010, 08:03 PM)James02 Wrote: I and my business partners have traveled a lot in Latin America.  The Catholic Church no longer exists there.  That is not an exaggeration.  We have lost most of the Catholics in Latin America.  And every year, the remaining "Catholics" (who don't believe in the real presence) convert to Mormons and Prots.  Vat. II and the N.O. have literally dragged hundreds of millions of Catholics to hell.

Don't you think the widespread torture and assasinations of nuns and priests as warnings to Catholics back in the 1980's might have had something to do with this?  Of course I do blame the "post-V-II" effect for the Church's failure to survive such an assault there, but we really can't blame it all on the soft-headed modernism of post-V-II church culture.
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#25
James02 Wrote:Vat. II and the N.O. have literally dragged hundreds of millions of Catholics to hell.

See this is my issue: can we really blame everything on Vatican II? The Protestant Reformation was hundreds of years in the making, and owed as much to economic factors and natural phenomena (bumper crops and plagues), as it did to theology and politics. The same goes for the French Revolution and any number of other Catholic touchstones. The point being, could it be possible that the collapse of the Church in the West is due to factors beyond Vatican II?
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#26
(03-21-2010, 08:16 PM)Credo Wrote: The point being, could it be possible that the collapse of the Church in the West is due to factors beyond Vatican II?
My opinion would be that it has been caused by Vatican II and it's 'spirit' more than factors beyond the council. I don't think that Vatican II can be blamed for everything, but it did seem to take away a huge amount of the churches strength and foundation, leaving it incredibly vulnerable. I think that all of these problems seem to be rooted several decades prior to the Council, but instead of crushing them Vatican II caved to them, causing the mess we have today. Just my opinion though.
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#27
Quote: Don't you think the widespread torture and assasinations of nuns and priests as warnings to Catholics back in the 1980's might have had something to do with this?  Of course I do blame the "post-V-II" effect for the Church's failure to survive such an assault there, but we really can't blame it all on the soft-headed modernism of post-V-II church culture.

"Widespread"?  Your need to exaggerate is telling.

No, the death of a few apostate nuns and priests, who had given up the Faith to fully espouse and spread marxist socialism, which they called "liberation theology", had absolutely NOTHING to do with the loss of so many souls.  The people left the Church when it self destructed and turned into some sort of charismatic revival mixed with socialism, all sans the sacraments.  It became hollow.  Most quit going, the rest went to the real protestants.
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#28
(03-21-2010, 08:16 PM)Credo Wrote:
James02 Wrote:Vat. II and the N.O. have literally dragged hundreds of millions of Catholics to hell.

See this is my issue: can we really blame everything on Vatican II? The Protestant Reformation was hundreds of years in the making, and owed as much to economic factors and natural phenomena (bumper crops and plagues), as it did to theology and politics. The same goes for the French Revolution and any number of other Catholic touchstones. The point being, could it be possible that the collapse of the Church in the West is due to factors beyond Vatican II?

Yes we can. You're right, V2 didn't introduce the problems in the Church. What it did was tear down the defenses. That is the notable difference imo. In a time when the Church should have been fortifying itself, it threw open the gates. 'Smoke of Satan has entered.' It allowed the "Spirit of V2" to enter, pervade, and take off.
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#29
(03-21-2010, 08:24 PM)RalphKramden Wrote:
(03-21-2010, 08:16 PM)Credo Wrote: The point being, could it be possible that the collapse of the Church in the West is due to factors beyond Vatican II?
My opinion would be that it has been caused by Vatican II and it's 'spirit' more than factors beyond the council. I don't think that Vatican II can be blamed for everything, but it did seem to take away a huge amount of the churches strength and foundation, leaving it incredibly vulnerable. I think that all of these problems seem to be rooted several decades prior to the Council, but instead of crushing them Vatican II caved to them, causing the mess we have today. Just my opinion though.

Agreed.
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#30
Quote: The point being, could it be possible that the collapse of the Church in the West is due to factors beyond Vatican II?
 I agree somewhat.  As a Feenyite, I believe in the following seqence:
1.  Rejection of EENS.
2.  Launch of a neo-Pelagianism.
3.  Since man saves himself by being "good", dignity of man overemphasized.
4.  Rejection of Augustine.  The Earthly City is not the City of the Devil.  Build heaven on Earth.
5.  Vatican II hijacked.  Church's natural defense muted after the rejection of EENS.

However, Vatican II unleashed the evil forces that had been lying dormant.  And of course the N.O. is a horror show.  They were the instruments, but the crisis in faith with the denial of EENS is the root cause.

But getting back to the topic, the Post V2 Church has lost hundreds of millions of souls, and a hollow Church with a farce of a Mass (go to one in any Latin American parish and you will literally puke) is the cause.
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