The Luminous Mysteries ? JP2
(04-25-2010, 09:34 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(04-25-2010, 07:16 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: convert trads most times are zealous but confused and still have an individualistic protty instinct.

Well then, I must be extra confused, since I started out Jewish.  :confused:

I don't know about that.  Another well-known convert, (Bishop Williamson) has said that when Jews convert, they make excellent Catholics because they are "...coming home in a way no gentile could understand in the same way." 
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(04-25-2010, 10:12 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(04-25-2010, 09:34 PM)JayneK Wrote: Well then, I must be extra confused, since I started out Jewish.  :confused:

I don't know about that.  Another well-known convert, (Bishop Williamson) has said that when Jews convert, they make excellent Catholics because they are "...coming home in a way no gentile could understand in the same way."   

Well that's something new to add to my list of things I like about Bishop Williamson. :incense:
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Oh how anti-Semitic of him!

[sarcasm]
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(04-25-2010, 10:12 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(04-25-2010, 09:34 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(04-25-2010, 07:16 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: convert trads most times are zealous but confused and still have an individualistic protty instinct.

Well then, I must be extra confused, since I started out Jewish.  :confused:

I don't know about that.  Another well-known convert, (Bishop Williamson) has said that when Jews convert, they make excellent Catholics because they are "...coming home in a way no gentile could understand in the same way."   

Although I admire Bp. Williamson greatly, I disagree with him making the distinction between Jew and "Gentile."  There is no longer that general distinction, for when Christ came in judgment over Jerusalem in AD 70, Biblical Judaism was put to rest for all time, along with the distiction of "Jew and Greek [Gentile]."  Using "Jew" in an ethnic sense is fine, but there arent' Jews and there aren't Gentiles when speaking of who is God's people and who are the heathens outside of the people, which is what the term "Gentile" was used to denote - those outside of the people of God who followed the Law of Biblical Judaism, which was fulfilled with Christ and His Church - completely and forever..  To believe otherwise would be to disbelieve what Christ accomplished when He came in His Kingdom in 70 AD, for WE are now the "Jews" in a spiritual sense, for we are now the people of God, the sons of Abraham per Scripture, which any living person no matter what ethnicity can now become a part of through the merits of the Sacrament of Baptism (just as circumcision was the sign of the covenant people in Biblical Judaism) and full submission to the will of God, which means full submission to His Church - the Holy Catholic Church.
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(04-26-2010, 06:13 AM)Nic Wrote:
(04-25-2010, 10:12 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(04-25-2010, 09:34 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(04-25-2010, 07:16 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: convert trads most times are zealous but confused and still have an individualistic protty instinct.

Well then, I must be extra confused, since I started out Jewish.  :confused:

I don't know about that.  Another well-known convert, (Bishop Williamson) has said that when Jews convert, they make excellent Catholics because they are "...coming home in a way no gentile could understand in the same way."   

Although I admire Bp. Williamson greatly, I disagree with him making the distinction between Jew and "Gentile."  There is no longer that general distinction, for when Christ came in judgment over Jerusalem in AD 70, Biblical Judaism was put to rest for all time, along with the distiction of "Jew and Greek [Gentile]."  Using "Jew" in an ethnic sense is fine, but there arent' Jews and there aren't Gentiles when speaking of who is God's people and who are the heathens outside of the people, which is what the term "Gentile" was used to denote - those outside of the people of God who followed the Law of Biblical Judaism, which was fulfilled with Christ and His Church - completely and forever..  To believe otherwise would be to disbelieve what Christ accomplished when He came in His Kingdom in 70 AD, for WE are now the "Jews" in a spiritual sense, for we are now the people of God, the sons of Abraham per Scripture, which any living person no matter what ethnicity can now become a part of through the merits of the Sacrament of Baptism (just as circumcision was the sign of the covenant people in Biblical Judaism) and full submission to the will of God, which means full submission to His Church - the Holy Catholic Church.

Well, if I recall correctly his point was simply that a religious and ethnic Jew would have a sense of returning home because they would see the fulfillment and continuity of their history in the Church.  An Irishman would be just happy that his ancestors abandoned their Celtic paganism to embrace the true faith, but a Jew who atttended Jewish services would see the fulfillment in the TLM.  I think the reaction would be quite different, a real sense of completion when at Mass the lectionary moves from the Epistle side to the Gospel side representing the shift from the Old Law to the New Law.  As a gentile, I have no emotional connection to the Old Law other than historical appreciation since I'm spoiled with only knowing the New Law.  But a Jew who only had the Old Law and reverenced it as the only law would, after converting see something akin to the resurrection and glofiication of their old beliefs in the Catholic Church. 

Bishop W never said there was a qualitative superiority of the Jewish convert over the Gentile Catholic, he explaining that the emotional experience was profoundly different from that of the Gentile Catholic and I would guess it would be quite noticeable to a convert like he is compared to a cradle Catholic.   


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(04-26-2010, 07:36 AM)Gerard Wrote:
(04-26-2010, 06:13 AM)Nic Wrote:
(04-25-2010, 10:12 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(04-25-2010, 09:34 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(04-25-2010, 07:16 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: convert trads most times are zealous but confused and still have an individualistic protty instinct.

Well then, I must be extra confused, since I started out Jewish.  :confused:

I don't know about that.  Another well-known convert, (Bishop Williamson) has said that when Jews convert, they make excellent Catholics because they are "...coming home in a way no gentile could understand in the same way."   

Although I admire Bp. Williamson greatly, I disagree with him making the distinction between Jew and "Gentile."  There is no longer that general distinction, for when Christ came in judgment over Jerusalem in AD 70, Biblical Judaism was put to rest for all time, along with the distiction of "Jew and Greek [Gentile]."  Using "Jew" in an ethnic sense is fine, but there arent' Jews and there aren't Gentiles when speaking of who is God's people and who are the heathens outside of the people, which is what the term "Gentile" was used to denote - those outside of the people of God who followed the Law of Biblical Judaism, which was fulfilled with Christ and His Church - completely and forever..  To believe otherwise would be to disbelieve what Christ accomplished when He came in His Kingdom in 70 AD, for WE are now the "Jews" in a spiritual sense, for we are now the people of God, the sons of Abraham per Scripture, which any living person no matter what ethnicity can now become a part of through the merits of the Sacrament of Baptism (just as circumcision was the sign of the covenant people in Biblical Judaism) and full submission to the will of God, which means full submission to His Church - the Holy Catholic Church.

Well, if I recall correctly his point was simply that a religious and ethnic Jew would have a sense of returning home because they would see the fulfillment and continuity of their history in the Church.  An Irishman would be just happy that his ancestors abandoned their Celtic paganism to embrace the true faith, but a Jew who atttended Jewish services would see the fulfillment in the TLM.  I think the reaction would be quite different, a real sense of completion when at Mass the lectionary moves from the Epistle side to the Gospel side representing the shift from the Old Law to the New Law.  As a gentile, I have no emotional connection to the Old Law other than historical appreciation since I'm spoiled with only knowing the New Law.  But a Jew who only had the Old Law and reverenced it as the only law would, after converting see something akin to the resurrection and glofiication of their old beliefs in the Catholic Church. 

Bishop W never said there was a qualitative superiority of the Jewish convert over the Gentile Catholic, he explaining that the emotional experience was profoundly different from that of the Gentile Catholic and I would guess it would be quite noticeable to a convert like he is compared to a cradle Catholic.   

I respect Bp. Williamson very much, as I am sure that you do as well, being a strong trad by what I have seen from your posts, but either the good Bishop used poor wording here or he is simply wrong.  From your previous post, I see that you are missing my point, which is evident as you call yourself a "Gentile."  There is no longer Jew or Gentile - this distinction was erased for all time with the Resurrection of Christ and more so with his judgment coming upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.  There is no "Gentile Catholic" or no "Jewish Catholic" -- there is only Catholic, unless you use ethnicity as a qualifier - then you could say things like European Catholic, African Catholic, Chinese Catholic , Jewish Catholic etc. -- but you cannot use "Gentile" as an ethnicity, because that is not the meaning of the term.  To Biblical Jews, Gentiles consisted of Greeks from Europe, Libyans from Africa, Britons from the Brittish Isles, Indians, Egyptians and so on - and these represent a wide variety of ethnicites.  The "Jews" of the Old Testament age were both an ethnic people AND a spiritual people, for they were the people of God.  With the New Testament, the title of the "people of God" was taken away from the nation of Israel and given to all people, which is the Catholic Church.  The distiction of Jew and Gentile in the O.T. was ONLY used to show who were the people of God and who were not the people of God.  This distiction is no more, for Biblical Judaism was destroyed circa 70 AD, never to return.  In the New Testament Age, Rabbinic Jews still consider themselves as they once were, although in truth the spiritual title of "God's People" was taken away from them.  This is why they still refer to others as "gentiles," and I am sure they just love it when non-Jews use it to describe themselves.  Being a srong traditional Catholic, I am sure that you know the "Judaism" that we have today is most definately NOT Biblical Judaism, but a completely different religion which could rightly be called "Pharasaic Rabbinism," for it is not centered in the Temple with sacrifice, but with the teacher in the synagouge.  This different religon has a different book that it places virtually higher than Scripture called the Talmud.  Anyway, this is why Catholics are now called "spiritual Jews" in the New Testament age, for WE are now the people of God, WE are the sons of Abraham, and WE consist of every ethnicity on the globe - from Europeans to Africans to Arabs to Oreintals to those of Jewish ethnicity.  Calling yourself a gentile is a folly thing, which is like stating that you are not of the people of God (which I can see that you are one of the people of God, just trying to make a point), which is pointless nowadays anyway because "gentiles" no longer exist.  The only distinction that we have now are Christians (Catholics, representing the "spiritual Jews," the people of the New Covenant in Christ) and non-Christians (non-Catholics, representing the "spiritual gentiles" who are apart from the people of God)

Anyway, I think what Bp. Williamson was trying to say was that a person raised in Pharasaic Rabbinism can come to see things in a different light than a Protestant or Orthodox convert, which I would agree with completely, as would a Protestant convert see things from a different light than a convert from Pharasaic Rabbinism.
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(04-25-2010, 11:55 PM)WanderingPenitent Wrote: Oh how anti-Semitic of him!

[sarcasm]

They just don't make anti-Semites the way they used to.  ;D
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(04-26-2010, 07:36 AM)Gerard Wrote: Well, if I recall correctly his point was simply that a religious and ethnic Jew would have a sense of returning home because they would see the fulfillment and continuity of their history in the Church.  An Irishman would be just happy that his ancestors abandoned their Celtic paganism to embrace the true faith, but a Jew who atttended Jewish services would see the fulfillment in the TLM.  I think the reaction would be quite different, a real sense of completion when at Mass the lectionary moves from the Epistle side to the Gospel side representing the shift from the Old Law to the New Law.  As a gentile, I have no emotional connection to the Old Law other than historical appreciation since I'm spoiled with only knowing the New Law.  But a Jew who only had the Old Law and reverenced it as the only law would, after converting see something akin to the resurrection and glofiication of their old beliefs in the Catholic Church. 

Bishop W never said there was a qualitative superiority of the Jewish convert over the Gentile Catholic, he explaining that the emotional experience was profoundly different from that of the Gentile Catholic and I would guess it would be quite noticeable to a convert like he is compared to a cradle Catholic.   

That makes a lot of sense to me and fits my experience.

I think that one reason that Mass in Latin "feels" right to me is that I was raised with prayers in Hebrew.  It feels natural for there to be a sacred, liturgical language that is different from my everyday speech.
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(04-26-2010, 08:28 AM)Nic Wrote: I respect Bp. Williamson very much, as I am sure that you do as well, being a strong trad by what I have seen from your posts, but either the good Bishop used poor wording here or he is simply wrong.  From your previous post, I see that you are missing my point, which is evident as you call yourself a "Gentile."  There is no longer Jew or Gentile - this distinction was erased for all time with the Resurrection of Christ and more so with his judgment coming upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.  There is no "Gentile Catholic" or no "Jewish Catholic" -- there is only Catholic, unless you use ethnicity as a qualifier - then you could say things like European Catholic, African Catholic, Chinese Catholic , Jewish Catholic etc.  The distiction of Jew and Gentile was ONLY used to show who were the people of God and who were not the people of God.  This distiction is no more, for Biblical Judaism was destroyed circa 70 AD, never to return.  Being a srong traditional Catholic, I am sure that you know the "Judaism" that we have today is most definately NOT Biblical Judaism, but a completely different religion which could rightly be called "Pharasaic Rabbinism," for it is not centered in the Temple with sacrifice, but with the teacher in the synagouge.  This different religon has a different book that it places virtually higher than Scripture called the Talmud.  Anyway, this is why Catholics are now called "spiritual Jews" in the New Testament age, for WE are now the people of God, WE are the sons of Abraham, and WE consist of every ethnicity on the globe - from Europeans to Africans to Arabs to Oreintals to those of Jewish ethnicity.  Calling yourself a gentile is a folly thing, which is like stating that you are not of the people of God (which I can see that you are one of the people of God, just trying to make a point), which is pointless nowadays anyway because "gentiles" no longer exist.  The only distinction that we have now are Christians (Catholics, representing the "spiritual Jews," the people of the New Covenant in Christ) and non-Christians (non-Catholics, representing the "spiritual gentiles" who are apart from the people of God)

Anyway, I think what Bp. Williamson was trying to say was that a person raised in Pharasaic Rabbinism can come to see things in a different light than a Protestant or Orthodox convert, which I would agree with completely.

I think his wording is necessarily plain in its understanding.  A trad can make the distinction between a follower of Judaism pre-Talmud, and post-Christian varieties of what is commonly called "Judaism."   But the Bishop is using plain language understood by the mass of people both within and without the Church.   Just as in painting, black and white are colors in terms of pigmentation but in terms of light energy, one is all colors combined and the other is a complete lack of color.  

The word Gentile just as the word Greek or Infidel or Pagan or Heretic all have meanings to this day despite the meaninglessness as it relates to religion.  "Gentile" in today's parlance simply means a "non-Jew" with "Jew" being understood today as a particular group of various ethnicities with various cultural and religious beliefs.   All of those definitions such as "Jew" and "Gentile" have no real importance in the Catholic Church since everyone is equal at the Communion rail.  But the interior experience by which people view their personal and ethnic history affects their emotional reaction to the truths that are known in the Church.   A Greek Catholic is no more or less a Catholic than a German or French Catholic even though their ethnic and cultural heritage has an effect on their reaction (ie. expression ) of their faith.  The differences between the French and German are noticeable since they both are Latin rite but they are fewer compared to the Greek who may be Byzantine in his expression of the faith.   If I were to be in a situation in which I only had a Byzantine rite Church to go to.  I would know that I'm "home" in the Catholic Church, but if I would particularly be happy to return to the TLM if only for the reason that it is the rite of my ancestors and part of the tradition of my family.  

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(04-26-2010, 09:13 AM)Gerard Wrote:
(04-26-2010, 08:28 AM)Nic Wrote: I respect Bp. Williamson very much, as I am sure that you do as well, being a strong trad by what I have seen from your posts, but either the good Bishop used poor wording here or he is simply wrong.  From your previous post, I see that you are missing my point, which is evident as you call yourself a "Gentile."  There is no longer Jew or Gentile - this distinction was erased for all time with the Resurrection of Christ and more so with his judgment coming upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.  There is no "Gentile Catholic" or no "Jewish Catholic" -- there is only Catholic, unless you use ethnicity as a qualifier - then you could say things like European Catholic, African Catholic, Chinese Catholic , Jewish Catholic etc.  The distiction of Jew and Gentile was ONLY used to show who were the people of God and who were not the people of God.  This distiction is no more, for Biblical Judaism was destroyed circa 70 AD, never to return.  Being a srong traditional Catholic, I am sure that you know the "Judaism" that we have today is most definately NOT Biblical Judaism, but a completely different religion which could rightly be called "Pharasaic Rabbinism," for it is not centered in the Temple with sacrifice, but with the teacher in the synagouge.  This different religon has a different book that it places virtually higher than Scripture called the Talmud.  Anyway, this is why Catholics are now called "spiritual Jews" in the New Testament age, for WE are now the people of God, WE are the sons of Abraham, and WE consist of every ethnicity on the globe - from Europeans to Africans to Arabs to Oreintals to those of Jewish ethnicity.  Calling yourself a gentile is a folly thing, which is like stating that you are not of the people of God (which I can see that you are one of the people of God, just trying to make a point), which is pointless nowadays anyway because "gentiles" no longer exist.  The only distinction that we have now are Christians (Catholics, representing the "spiritual Jews," the people of the New Covenant in Christ) and non-Christians (non-Catholics, representing the "spiritual gentiles" who are apart from the people of God)

Anyway, I think what Bp. Williamson was trying to say was that a person raised in Pharasaic Rabbinism can come to see things in a different light than a Protestant or Orthodox convert, which I would agree with completely.

I think his wording is necessarily plain in its understanding.  A trad can make the distinction between a follower of Judaism pre-Talmud, and post-Christian varieties of what is commonly called "Judaism."   But the Bishop is using plain language understood by the mass of people both within and without the Church.   Just as in painting, black and white are colors in terms of pigmentation but in terms of light energy, one is all colors combined and the other is a complete lack of color.  

The word Gentile just as the word Greek or Infidel or Pagan or Heretic all have meanings to this day despite the meaninglessness as it relates to religion.  "Gentile" in today's parlance simply means a "non-Jew" with "Jew" being understood today as a particular group of various ethnicities with various cultural and religious beliefs.   All of those definitions such as "Jew" and "Gentile" have no real importance in the Catholic Church since everyone is equal at the Communion rail.  But the interior experience by which people view their personal and ethnic history affects their emotional reaction to the truths that are known in the Church.   A Greek Catholic is no more or less a Catholic than a German or French Catholic even though their ethnic and cultural heritage has an effect on their reaction (ie. expression ) of their faith.  The differences between the French and German are noticeable since they both are Latin rite but they are fewer compared to the Greek who may be Byzantine in his expression of the faith.   If I were to be in a situation in which I only had a Byzantine rite Church to go to.  I would know that I'm "home" in the Catholic Church, but if I would particularly be happy to return to the TLM if only for the reason that it is the rite of my ancestors and part of the tradition of my family.  

Regardless, the term" gentile" should not be used AT ALL in post-Biblical Judaism times, for it is a very specific term used to denote those who were NOT God's People.  Calling oneself a "gentile" in these times is a very weird thing to do, and it causes confusion - especially in modern times when we have Fundies stating that the Jews are still God's People - as well as Catholics believing that post-Biblical Judaism (Pharasaic Rabbinism) is salvific due to its prior covenants.  The term Gentile was only relevant when the Jews were BOTH an ethnicity and the spiritual people of God.  After Christ, they are just an ethnicity with nothing overly special about them in God's eyes - just like every other ethnicity in the world - they all need Christ and His Church.
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