Are Catholic Bishops in Apostasy?
#11
(05-05-2010, 11:21 AM)JonW Wrote: This reminds me of a question: is it lawful or licit or moral to discuss the failings of a particular bishop regarding his positions on te Church, etc.?

If he is damaging the Faith by his actions, yes. Saints and Doctors of the Church have said as much.
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#12
Under the appearances of heresy, disobedience and sin there's a Catholic Bishop there somewhere.  Is this the snow covered dung heap Luther was talking about?
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#13
(05-05-2010, 12:23 PM)CrusaderKing Wrote:
(05-05-2010, 11:21 AM)JonW Wrote: This reminds me of a question: is it lawful or licit or moral to discuss the failings of a particular bishop regarding his positions on te Church, etc.?

If he is damaging the Faith by his actions, yes. Saints and Doctors of the Church have said as much.

On the other hand, the sort of vague generalizations that have characterized this thread are unjust to those bishops who behave as they ought.  How does this sort of ranting benefit the Church?  Accurate and specific accusations can expose the truth and defend the Faith.  Emotional outbursts go against both truth and charity and are not likely to be productive.
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#14
(05-05-2010, 12:38 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(05-05-2010, 12:23 PM)CrusaderKing Wrote:
(05-05-2010, 11:21 AM)JonW Wrote: This reminds me of a question: is it lawful or licit or moral to discuss the failings of a particular bishop regarding his positions on te Church, etc.?

If he is damaging the Faith by his actions, yes. Saints and Doctors of the Church have said as much.

On the other hand, the sort of vague generalizations that have characterized this thread are unjust to those bishops who behave as they ought.  How does this sort of ranting benefit the Church?  Accurate and specific accusations can expose the truth and defend the Faith.  Emotional outbursts go against both truth and charity and are not likely to be productive.

One of the great things about being human is that despite all of the larceny, malfeasance and evil that surrounds us, that we still cry out in some kind of pain when those we trusted betray us, and even the most jaded of us tend to hate hypocrisy; while I don't subscribe to an indescriminate lambasting of all Bishops, it certainly is hard to find ones that are Orthodox or havent' in one way or another betrayed their trust in a substantial and demonstrable way.
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#15
(05-05-2010, 01:10 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: One of the great things about being human is that despite all of the larceny, malfeasance and evil that surrounds us, that we still cry out in some kind of pain when those we trusted betray us, and even the most jaded of us tend to hate hypocrisy; while I don't subscribe to an indescriminate lambasting of all Bishops, it certainly is hard to find ones that are Orthodox or havent' in one way or another betrayed their trust in a substantial and demonstrable way.

I do not know enough about all the bishops in the world to make meaningful statements about the proportion of good to bad. I read stories about notoriously bad bishops and I read stories about remarkably good bishops.  In my personal experience, I think that my archbishop here is good, both orthodox and prudent.  I also consider the bishop of the diocese where I used to live to be a good one.  The other bishop that I know is a former professor of mine.  I admired his faith very much back when I knew him and I doubt that being a bishop has changed him. 

I get that sometimes people just want to cry out in pain, but I think that it is counter-productive most of the time.
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#16
Well, at least most of us can all agree that Archbishop Fulton Sheen was a good Bishop not held in Apostasy!!! Just sayin....  :crazy:
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#17
(05-05-2010, 02:09 AM)Baskerville Wrote:
(05-04-2010, 10:30 PM)Heinrich Wrote: Maybe the OP had the USCCB in mind.

Oh if thats the case then yes 95% are apostates.

My friend...please name the 5% that aren't...Just a question that is all.
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#18
One of the two regular New Church apologists asked for a specific example (credo or gigas) - here is one from New Zealand:

In a radio interview on 6 September, 2000, Cardinal Williams - the only New Zealand Cardinal, said this:

“In fact, the statement that you made at the beginning was quite inaccurate - that it's only through the Catholic Church that people can be saved.  That is a heresy that has been attacked by the Church: 'Outside the Church, no salvation'.

I wrote to that Cardinal and pointed out the error - his written response to me was re-affirm his view and basically tell me not to bother replying.

So there is one example of a heretic Cardinal who has publicly preached heresy in an unequivocal way.

Oh - we also had another Bishop - I believe it was the Bishop of Christchurch at the time, who wrote an article in the national newspaper telling people that if they couldn't abstain from sex, they should "contracept up to the eyeballs".  This was his reaction to the large number of teen pregnancies.

I went to my niece's baptism at a local novus ordo parish this weekend - it is a very conservative one by NZ standards.  It is the first time I have been to a novus ordo in about 10 years.  This is what I witnessed:

1. The children were removed from Mass at the start to go and draw in another room - with the exception of one girl - who was the altar "boy".
2. The priest giving the sermon (who wasn't the priest saying Mass) told a very long joke which led up to him quoting Gandhi who pointed out the "problems" with Christians. No saint was mentioned or quoted and the whole thing was social justice from the perspective of a pagan (Gandhi).
3. The priest prayed in the middle of Mass a prayer for vocations (ironic really as it is this very banal production which is destroying them)
4. Before the final prayers, the priest interjected again to give notices.
5. The children were all invited up to the front of the Church before the final blessing to be individually blessed - hands on - by both priests

I don't even know what happened during communion as I had to leave the building so I wouldn't see the inevitable communion in the hand.

There were the usual awful protestant hymns sung by an aging and dying small community.

The whole thing was truly awful - it resembled nothing Catholic.
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#19
Further to my previous message I forgot to mention that during the baptism after Mass, the priest was visibly trying not to say the word "sin" and he only did so when the formula from the book had to be read.  He also referred to all of the genesis section of the Bible as "symbolic" and said that believing in the devil is a "personal thing".  As he poured the water over my nieces head, he asked everyone gathered to say the baptismal formula with him.

In the many years that I was deceived into going to the Novus Ordo - I never saw a more conservative parish.  If this is what the conservatives are doing - imagine what I used to see at the non-conservative parishes.

Except at a few SSPX chapels and the home of a very holy retired priest, Catholicism has all but left New Zealand.
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#20
They are too cowardly to speak the truth of what Jesus and his church teaches, dont worry about what the Jews, Pagans, Schismatics and Heretics are saying , its these Bishops and priests who are supposed to be followers of Jesus  yet water down , explain away, are wishy-washy or even outright deny teachings of Jesus when confronted by the issue inb the world. Read a good book on how the martyrs spoke to pagans and tell me with a straight face your bishop preaches ot teaches that way.
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