Fr. Z poll
#81
(10-04-2010, 02:29 PM)ies0716 Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 02:07 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: I don't buy that you've talked to many people in the SSPX.  You sure haven't talked to me, but I'm not an SSPX member either, most of the laity who go tot he chapels AREN'T members of the SSPX and many of them are actually registered as parishoners elsewhere.  You're just like that "cheeky pink girl" who had ONE bad experience with SSPXer and inflated that and what are probably her own delusions into a miscalculation she likes to repeat often to her fans on her blog who largely consist of conservative housewives like herself who aren't too interested in really finding out the truth but are more concerned about harboring grievances

I don't see anyone associated with the SSPX insulting the Pope.  I don't even see it here, although there are Sedes who do from time to time go overboard on this forum, perhaps.  AngelQueen, for example, if you'd check it out, actually has a policy AGAINST insulting His Holiness.

You should go to the SSPX chapel.  They're just people.  That's all.

Perhaps I am attributing anti-papal comments to SSPX'ers when they are actually sedes.  It can be difficult to tell who is associated with whom on a forum.  If that is the case, than I apologize for my accusation.

I had a friend a few years ago stop attending diocesan Masses a few years ago and begin exclusively attending SSPX.  Her attitudes got extremely radical and insulting toward our local bishop and toward the Pope.  She acted like someone who had just joined a cult, and it was very off-putting.  At the time, I wrote it off as a problem she had personally, but I have also encountered a number of SSPX members on this forum (Stubborn and Nic come to mind) who have acted in a like manner, attacking me for being a "New Order" Catholic because I have the temerity to attend diocesan TLM's or NO Masses instead of going to SSPX.  If you do not share their views, then I apologize for grouping you in with them.  I can only base my judgments based off of what I have seen and SSPX members I have interacted with.  It can be difficult to pin down what the society actually believes, especially when some in the hierarchy (Bp. Fellay) are very positive toward the Holy Father and in favor of reunion while some (Bp. Williamson) attack Rome at every opportunity and don't appear to favor any reconciliation with Rome at all.

I may head to the SSPX chapel for Mass one of these weeks.  My wife and I have to switch off Masses on Sundays due to our 11-month-old daughter's inability to sit still during Mass. I've been looking for an early TLM on the days I go to Mass first, and SSPX has the only early TLM that I could find.  We'll see what happens, I guess.

I'm also more sympathetic to SSPXers.  They're a lot kinder lot than the NOers, especially neo-conservative NOers.   

Also, SSPX priests work harder and are more conscientious than any NO priest I've ever known, perhaps with a few exceptions.   I'd say one SSPX priest is worth 1,000 Novus Ordo types, from years of observation and having had the misfortune of meeting and getting to know more than I would have ever wanted to.

The only thing worse than the NO clergy are protestants and Old Catholics; if you can believe it, they are even more irritating and are typically jailbirds, and porn addicts; I can't imagine why.  No wonder people tend to anti-clericalism, but then, I've been spoiled by knowing exceptionally decent clergy who weren't even in the same league as most of them.
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#82
(10-04-2010, 07:28 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: Also, SSPX priests work harder and are more conscientious than any NO priest I've ever known, perhaps with a few exceptions.  I'd say one SSPX priest is worth 1,000 Novus Ordo types, from years of observation and having had the misfortune of meeting and getting to know more than I would have ever wanted to.

How many confessions are heard by and SSPX priest?  The priest who regularly celebrate New mass in my Church are able to hear about 20 confessions before and during the Mass. Is it possible that an SSPX priest validly absolves 20,000 penitent within an hour? What about taking the viaticum to the ones in the deathbed?  Or to connect people to God? The very liberal pastor in my territorial parish serves 12000 registered Catholics (4500 families) and in an average weekend close to 3000 attend Mass. Does every  SSPX priest serve 3 million people in every Sunday? (Fellay estimated the number of SSPC followers worldwide max 600,000) .

How many people make confession, how many people attend Mass in an average Sunday an SSPX parish?
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#83
(10-04-2010, 08:32 PM)glgas Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 07:28 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: Also, SSPX priests work harder and are more conscientious than any NO priest I've ever known, perhaps with a few exceptions.   I'd say one SSPX priest is worth 1,000 Novus Ordo types, from years of observation and having had the misfortune of meeting and getting to know more than I would have ever wanted to.

How many confessions are heard by and SSPX priest?  The priest who regularly celebrate New mass in my Church are able to hear about 20 confessions before and during the Mass. Is it possible that an SSPX priest validly absolves 20,000 penitent within an hour? What about taking the viaticum to the ones in the deathbed?  Or to connect people to God? The very liberal pastor in my territorial parish serves 12000 registered Catholics (4500 families) and in an average weekend close to 3000 attend Mass. Does every  SSPX priest serve 3 million people in every Sunday? (Fellay estimated the number of SSPC followers worldwide max 600,000) .

How many people make confession, how many people attend Mass in an average Sunday an SSPX parish?

It's my guess he's aiming at quality of work, not the quanity of work.
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#84
(10-04-2010, 09:30 PM)Azurestone Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 08:32 PM)glgas Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 07:28 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: Also, SSPX priests work harder and are more conscientious than any NO priest I've ever known, perhaps with a few exceptions.   I'd say one SSPX priest is worth 1,000 Novus Ordo types, from years of observation and having had the misfortune of meeting and getting to know more than I would have ever wanted to.

How many confessions are heard by and SSPX priest?  The priest who regularly celebrate New mass in my Church are able to hear about 20 confessions before and during the Mass. Is it possible that an SSPX priest validly absolves 20,000 penitent within an hour? What about taking the viaticum to the ones in the deathbed?  Or to connect people to God? The very liberal pastor in my territorial parish serves 12000 registered Catholics (4500 families) and in an average weekend close to 3000 attend Mass. Does every  SSPX priest serve 3 million people in every Sunday? (Fellay estimated the number of SSPC followers worldwide max 600,000) .

How many people make confession, how many people attend Mass in an average Sunday an SSPX parish?

It's my guess he's aiming at quality of work, not the quanity of work.

Each valid absolution and eucharist has a definite value, so releasing a person from mortal sin in the name of the church and providing them with the body of Christ can't really be measured in quality.
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#85
(10-05-2010, 01:10 AM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 09:30 PM)Azurestone Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 08:32 PM)glgas Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 07:28 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: Also, SSPX priests work harder and are more conscientious than any NO priest I've ever known, perhaps with a few exceptions.   I'd say one SSPX priest is worth 1,000 Novus Ordo types, from years of observation and having had the misfortune of meeting and getting to know more than I would have ever wanted to.

How many confessions are heard by and SSPX priest?  The priest who regularly celebrate New mass in my Church are able to hear about 20 confessions before and during the Mass. Is it possible that an SSPX priest validly absolves 20,000 penitent within an hour? What about taking the viaticum to the ones in the deathbed?  Or to connect people to God? The very liberal pastor in my territorial parish serves 12000 registered Catholics (4500 families) and in an average weekend close to 3000 attend Mass. Does every  SSPX priest serve 3 million people in every Sunday? (Fellay estimated the number of SSPC followers worldwide max 600,000) .

How many people make confession, how many people attend Mass in an average Sunday an SSPX parish?

It's my guess he's aiming at quality of work, not the quanity of work.

Each valid absolution and eucharist has a definite value, so releasing a person from mortal sin in the name of the church and providing them with the body of Christ can't really be measured in quality.

Sure it can. Did those people receive a solid counseling in their confession, or were they immediately absolved and left to recommit their sins in their same cycle. Confession is more than absolution. If it was not, I can merely stay at home and ask God for forgiveness. Confession is for the sinner to receive advice and guidance (treatment from the doctor) for their continued sins (illness) so they may gain the sight and will to break the cycle and become holy (be cured of their fallen nature).
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#86
(10-05-2010, 10:19 AM)Azurestone Wrote: Sure it can. Did those people receive a solid counseling in their confession, or were they immediately absolved and left to recommit their sins in their same cycle. Confession is more than absolution. If it was not, I can merely stay at home and ask God for forgiveness. Confession is for the sinner to receive advice and guidance (treatment from the doctor) for their continued sins (illness) so they may gain the sight and will to break the cycle and become holy (be cured of their fallen nature).

Based on my experiences, it seems to be the "Spirit of Vatican II" priests who are more interested in turning each confession into a counseling session, while more traditional priests tend to just give a solid penance followed by absolution.  Plus, when you are in a parish where many people go to confession, it becomes impractical to give too much counseling in each session lest there be people left in line who can't get to confession that day.  People who want extended counseling in their confessions should make an appointment, IMHO.
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#87
(10-05-2010, 10:19 AM)Azurestone Wrote:
(10-05-2010, 01:10 AM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 09:30 PM)Azurestone Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 08:32 PM)glgas Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 07:28 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: Also, SSPX priests work harder and are more conscientious than any NO priest I've ever known, perhaps with a few exceptions.   I'd say one SSPX priest is worth 1,000 Novus Ordo types, from years of observation and having had the misfortune of meeting and getting to know more than I would have ever wanted to.

How many confessions are heard by and SSPX priest?  The priest who regularly celebrate New mass in my Church are able to hear about 20 confessions before and during the Mass. Is it possible that an SSPX priest validly absolves 20,000 penitent within an hour? What about taking the viaticum to the ones in the deathbed?  Or to connect people to God? The very liberal pastor in my territorial parish serves 12000 registered Catholics (4500 families) and in an average weekend close to 3000 attend Mass. Does every  SSPX priest serve 3 million people in every Sunday? (Fellay estimated the number of SSPC followers worldwide max 600,000) .

How many people make confession, how many people attend Mass in an average Sunday an SSPX parish?

It's my guess he's aiming at quality of work, not the quanity of work.

Each valid absolution and eucharist has a definite value, so releasing a person from mortal sin in the name of the church and providing them with the body of Christ can't really be measured in quality.

Sure it can. Did those people receive a solid counseling in their confession, or were they immediately absolved and left to recommit their sins in their same cycle. Confession is more than absolution. If it was not, I can merely stay at home and ask God for forgiveness. Confession is for the sinner to receive advice and guidance (treatment from the doctor) for their continued sins (illness) so they may gain the sight and will to break the cycle and become holy (be cured of their fallen nature).

An error that St. Pius X condemned in the Syllabus of Errors: "The words of the Lord, "Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" (John 20:22-23), in no way refer to the Sacrament of Penance, in spite of what it pleased the Fathers of Trent to say."

So wow, not sure why you mention staying home and asking God for forgiveness when the Catholic church requires mortal sins to be absolved thru the sacrament of penance.

I do see what you mean - it'd be a terrible thing if any priest is instilling in the faithful a lack of true contrition (required for penance) thru bad advice in the confessional.

But every validly ordained priest can remit the eternal punishment sue for mortal sin thru absolution, so I still think it'd be hard to argue that a NO who enables 1,000 NO parishioners to avoid hellfire thru absolution is equal to 1 SSPX priest who absolves 1 SSPX parishioner...

I'm getting fantastic confessional advice from NO priests but it's not like it's a counseling session either. We often have line ups for confession at our Basilica so they don't have time to do spiritual direction or anything like that. I've gone to confession dozens of times this year and have never heard any priest contradict the magisterium. I still think the main purpose is to absolve sins, not provide advice.
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#88
(10-05-2010, 10:34 AM)ies0716 Wrote:
(10-05-2010, 10:19 AM)Azurestone Wrote: Sure it can. Did those people receive a solid counseling in their confession, or were they immediately absolved and left to recommit their sins in their same cycle. Confession is more than absolution. If it was not, I can merely stay at home and ask God for forgiveness. Confession is for the sinner to receive advice and guidance (treatment from the doctor) for their continued sins (illness) so they may gain the sight and will to break the cycle and become holy (be cured of their fallen nature).

Based on my experiences, it seems to be the "Spirit of Vatican II" priests who are more interested in turning each confession into a counseling session, while more traditional priests tend to just give a solid penance followed by absolution.  Plus, when you are in a parish where many people go to confession, it becomes impractical to give too much counseling in each session lest there be people left in line who can't get to confession that day.  People who want extended counseling in their confessions should make an appointment, IMHO.

In the last few months the priest has had to leave the confessional before I got to him because there were too many penitents.
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#89
(10-05-2010, 10:43 AM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(10-05-2010, 10:34 AM)ies0716 Wrote:
(10-05-2010, 10:19 AM)Azurestone Wrote: Sure it can. Did those people receive a solid counseling in their confession, or were they immediately absolved and left to recommit their sins in their same cycle. Confession is more than absolution. If it was not, I can merely stay at home and ask God for forgiveness. Confession is for the sinner to receive advice and guidance (treatment from the doctor) for their continued sins (illness) so they may gain the sight and will to break the cycle and become holy (be cured of their fallen nature).

Based on my experiences, it seems to be the "Spirit of Vatican II" priests who are more interested in turning each confession into a counseling session, while more traditional priests tend to just give a solid penance followed by absolution.  Plus, when you are in a parish where many people go to confession, it becomes impractical to give too much counseling in each session lest there be people left in line who can't get to confession that day.  People who want extended counseling in their confessions should make an appointment, IMHO.

In the last few months the priest has had to leave the confessional before I got to him because there were too many penitents.

I've had this problem as well because too many penitents (typically aging baby boomers) take 10-15 minutes in the confessional.  I'm sorry, but unless you're Larry Flynt or making a general confession, there is no valid reason for a confession to take that long.  Even if the priest offers advice, it should be something like "Pray daily to Our Lady for Purity.  Say three Hail Marys every morning for one month as your penance" instead of a verbal dissertation on the meaning of forgiveness.  For people who want spiritual direction in addition to absolution, they should make an appointment or better yet get a regular confessor that they go to on a set schedule.
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#90
(10-05-2010, 10:41 AM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(10-05-2010, 10:19 AM)Azurestone Wrote:
(10-05-2010, 01:10 AM)Bakuryokuso Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 09:30 PM)Azurestone Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 08:32 PM)glgas Wrote:
(10-04-2010, 07:28 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: Also, SSPX priests work harder and are more conscientious than any NO priest I've ever known, perhaps with a few exceptions.   I'd say one SSPX priest is worth 1,000 Novus Ordo types, from years of observation and having had the misfortune of meeting and getting to know more than I would have ever wanted to.

How many confessions are heard by and SSPX priest?  The priest who regularly celebrate New mass in my Church are able to hear about 20 confessions before and during the Mass. Is it possible that an SSPX priest validly absolves 20,000 penitent within an hour? What about taking the viaticum to the ones in the deathbed?  Or to connect people to God? The very liberal pastor in my territorial parish serves 12000 registered Catholics (4500 families) and in an average weekend close to 3000 attend Mass. Does every  SSPX priest serve 3 million people in every Sunday? (Fellay estimated the number of SSPC followers worldwide max 600,000) .

How many people make confession, how many people attend Mass in an average Sunday an SSPX parish?

It's my guess he's aiming at quality of work, not the quanity of work.

Each valid absolution and eucharist has a definite value, so releasing a person from mortal sin in the name of the church and providing them with the body of Christ can't really be measured in quality.

Sure it can. Did those people receive a solid counseling in their confession, or were they immediately absolved and left to recommit their sins in their same cycle. Confession is more than absolution. If it was not, I can merely stay at home and ask God for forgiveness. Confession is for the sinner to receive advice and guidance (treatment from the doctor) for their continued sins (illness) so they may gain the sight and will to break the cycle and become holy (be cured of their fallen nature).

An error that St. Pius X condemned in the Syllabus of Errors: "The words of the Lord, "Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" (John 20:22-23), in no way refer to the Sacrament of Penance, in spite of what it pleased the Fathers of Trent to say."

So wow, not sure why you mention staying home and asking God for forgiveness when the Catholic church requires mortal sins to be absolved thru the sacrament of penance.

I do see what you mean - it'd be a terrible thing if any priest is instilling in the faithful a lack of true contrition (required for penance) thru bad advice in the confessional.

But every validly ordained priest can remit the eternal punishment sue for mortal sin thru absolution, so I still think it'd be hard to argue that a NO who enables 1,000 NO parishioners to avoid hellfire thru absolution is equal to 1 SSPX priest who absolves 1 SSPX parishioner...

I'm getting fantastic confessional advice from NO priests but it's not like it's a counseling session either. We often have line ups for confession at our Basilica so they don't have time to do spiritual direction or anything like that. I've gone to confession dozens of times this year and have never heard any priest contradict the magisterium. I still think the main purpose is to absolve sins, not provide advice.

For perspective, I'll admit I personally believe in the need for the priest to provide spiritual direction, as well as absolution. Something that has become lost with too many families in a parish lining up behind a booth.

Therefore, I'm not advocating staying at home and praying to God. Quite the opposite. My point is, lack of direction, i.e. attention by the priest to the faithful's sins, will permit the faithful in a spiraling repeat of their sins. For a person cannot be their own doctor, and neither can they be expected to fix their own sins, because the sinner can often talk/reason their sins, assuming they recognize them at all.

So yes, getting an appointment for confession should be something everyone should do, at least every so often.
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