Evolution
Evolution almost certainly happened guided by God or predetermined by him
to come to the state before the fall. The evidence for the Big Bang and the diversity of
animals extinct and alive I think are strong evidence for it. Some great books that
approach these questions from a Christian perspective are written by Allister McGrath
who has a PhD in molecular biophysics from Oxford and who is now a theologian
has written great books on the subject (most especially A Fine-Tuned Universe: The Quest for God in Science and Theology)  of how to make theology and the natural sciences work together. Effects reveal their cause as St.Thomas
taught us, and to study creation is in a sense studying the nature and/or ways of God. Creation shows the
rationality of the creator for example.
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(12-23-2010, 09:03 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote:
(12-22-2010, 10:32 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(12-22-2010, 08:33 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote:
(12-22-2010, 07:27 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(12-22-2010, 07:16 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: I try to keep it simple. So much of modern science does have an atheistic bias that I simply ignore it. I'd rather hold a simple faith in a world that was literally created in the manner Scripture and the Fathers say it was in the short time period that most agree on, period, close the book. One can study the science if one chooses to do so, but I have enough to study about the faith and enough to do in working out my own salvation than to delve into the murky waters of science/religion debates and where they may or may not intersect. My only prayer is for a  simple faith. I think we need to know our type of personality, talents and inclinations and work with them accordingly, Those that have the mind for science can certainly delve into it but I don't and so I simply do not pay attention to anything going on in the science world. To involve yourself in things that you are not prepared to handle or understand can destroy your faith and as it says in Holy  Scripture "without faith it is impossible to please God" meaning without Catholic Faith since there is no salvation outside the Church.

Well said!

Really?  It's not even close to the other comments you've posted in this thread.

You're right, no, it's not. But does that mean I must disagree with what he said?

If you've understood my posts properly, you'd understand that I don't necessarily support the evolution theory; I've only said that the theory of evolution as narrowly defined doesn't explicitly contradict the Catholic Faith. That doesn't mean anything beyond what it means and certainly doesn't have any affect on my admiration for a simple faith.

Fair enough!

Would you like a tiny sneak-peak, bird-eye view of my reply to the modernism thread which I have been working on on & off (mostly off) for weeks now?

I actually thought you were serious; I was thinking that the next few days were going to be much busier than I had already anticipated.

Quote:  Here it is: you win.  Now don't let that go to your head.

I don't think there is much cause for anything to go to my head in this case. "Winning" in this context means one thing and one thing only: you have decided not to reply. I won't pretend that means something it does not necessarily mean.

Fair?
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(12-24-2010, 01:38 AM)dnu Wrote: Some people get too worked up over a total non-issue.  If evolution is true...rock on...if it is false...rock on.  I've met too many people in my life who are so heavenly (and Dogmatically) minded that they're of no earthly good.  The message of Christ doesn't change just because the two different creation stories of Genesis aren't consistent with modern science. 

I agree.  I don't see this as a big issue.  If evolution is proved wrong the secularists will just come up with another theory.  They'll never acknowledge God. 
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(12-24-2010, 11:58 AM)DrBombay Wrote:
(12-24-2010, 01:38 AM)dnu Wrote: Some people get too worked up over a total non-issue.  If evolution is true...rock on...if it is false...rock on.  I've met too many people in my life who are so heavenly (and Dogmatically) minded that they're of no earthly good.  The message of Christ doesn't change just because the two different creation stories of Genesis aren't consistent with modern science. 

I agree.  I don't see this as a big issue.  If evolution is proved wrong the secularists will just come up with another theory.  They'll never acknowledge God. 

But they will never abandon evolutionism, they are committed now, no matter how much evidence comes about that destroys their pet theory (and there is TONS of evidence that does).  They will continue to jam evolution down the public's throat, and they will use scientific babbling to ensure that end, making themselves seem "smart" in the process.  Unfortunately, the Discovery Channel is where the majority of Americans receive their scientific "knowledge" - and the Discovery Channel, as well as National Geographic, Animal Planet etc are super-committed to evolutionism and mention the theory in almost every one of their programs, whether relevant or not.  There seems to be a quota of some sort that must be met concerning the advertisement of evolutionism on that channel.

The atheistic evolutionists will never give up their theory.  If they did, they would have to admit two very significant things:  1)  That an intelligent designer exists, and 2) that they were wrong all along about almost everything.  They will NOT do either of these, especially the latter.  They would rather continue to fabricate evidence and pump the public full of pseudo-science than admit they have been wrong all along.  This is something that the vast majority of them simply will not do.
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(12-25-2010, 07:24 AM)Nic Wrote: no matter how much evidence comes about that destroys their pet theory (and there is TONS of evidence that does).

You cannot just say that there is evidence that contradicts all the scientific knowledge we have and then leave the issue behind. If you are going to make a proclamation that there is some sort of evidence, please explain it.
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(12-25-2010, 03:37 PM)Gladium Wrote:
(12-25-2010, 07:24 AM)Nic Wrote: no matter how much evidence comes about that destroys their pet theory (and there is TONS of evidence that does).

You cannot just say that there is evidence that contradicts all the scientific knowledge we have and then leave the issue behind. If you are going to make a proclamation that there is some sort of evidence, please explain it.

It can be difficult to uncover for yourself, since the scientific community tries to discard, discredit and hide any evidence that destroys their theory - but there is LOTS of evidence that does, too much to write in a post.  I advice you to read a specific book that will help you see what I mean.  This book is lauded by Creationists and absolutely loathed by evolutionists because it wipes the floor with their theories, and thus they try to discredit it whenever possible.  It is called "In the Beginning:  Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - 8th Edition" by Dr. Walt Brown, a former MIT professor.  He presents the evidence in a scientific yet understandable way.  I have read several books on this subject, and I myself am a former evolutionist - but this book absolutely blew me away!

But if you want a few examples of evidence, here ya go.  There is no gradualism in the fossil record, there are no intermediate types.  If evolution were true, there would be MILLIONS of intermediates, like lizards with little wings etc.  There are none in the fossil record, and there are none living today.  Also, the theory of evolution states that once a creature evolves into something else, the former creature ceases to be.  Then why are there still apes around if humans came from apes?  Why are their still lizards around if birds came from lizards?  Their theory contradicts itself!  Also, the fossil record doesn't show a gradual process taking millions of years as evolutionists proclaim - it shows RAPID burial.  It cannot be gradual as they proclaim, for erosion would have made it impossible to concrete fossils.  There is only ONE plausible explanation for the fossil record, and that is a worldwide flood, for water and sediments are the only way for organic life to be fossilized is such a way, and the burial had to be rapid.  The layering strata prove this point in spades, for the scientific process known as "liquefaction" creates layers, which were rapidly hardened after the flood waters retreated into the newly formed ocean basins.  This chemical hardening of the sentiments hardened all of the organic life that was trapped within, thus creating the fossil record.  Again, the rapidness of this process is proven by the very creatures fossilized, like fish in the process of eating smaller fish and with undigested food still in their bellies.  These layers of strata are common for millions of square miles upon the earth - this would be impossible from the evolutionists perspective, and only a one-time global flood with water coming from beneath the earth (all of the fountains of the great deep burst forth on one day - Genesis 7:11) could have produced such an effect.  Take a look at the oceanic ridges which wrap around the earth like the seem of a baseball - this is where the waters beneath the earth broke free.  These jetting waters that were under tremendous pressure within the earth, released at the expected engergy release of 300 trillion hydrogen bombs, which caused torrential rainfall like the earth has never experienced, for the rain was the spray of the "fountains of the great deep" which caused "the windows of the heavens" to be opened.  This one cataclysmic event redefined the world, for the pre-flood earth was much different than the world we know.  This is explained with great detail in Dr. Brown's book.  His theory called "the hydroplate theory" is brilliant to say the least.

I don't want to get to far into this - I could write all day!  If you are truly interested in this, then I implore you to read Dr. Brown's book.
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(12-24-2010, 06:01 AM)sheep101 Wrote: Evolution almost certainly happened guided by God or predetermined by him
to come to the state before the fall. The evidence for the Big Bang and the diversity of
animals extinct and alive I think are strong evidence for it. Some great books that
approach these questions from a Christian perspective are written by Allister McGrath
who has a PhD in molecular biophysics from Oxford and who is now a theologian
has written great books on the subject (most especially A Fine-Tuned Universe: The Quest for God in Science and Theology)  of how to make theology and the natural sciences work together. Effects reveal their cause as St.Thomas
taught us, and to study creation is in a sense studying the nature and/or ways of God. Creation shows the
rationality of the creator for example.

You are a Catholic, right? - so you believe in Original Sin, correct?  The ideal of polygenism, that is, many first parents, is condemned, which means that in the beginning there was only Adam and Eve.  So what you are trying to tell me is that God used millions of years to evolve simple marine life into amphibians, then to lizards and birds, then to monkeys and other mammals and then to human beings as we know them now - and then every single human being was wiped off of the face of the earth except for Adam and Eve, who were perfect in the eyes of God, living in an earthly paradise until they fell and were the progenitors of inherited Original Sin?  Do you know how preposterous that is!?  The Fall of Adam and Eve is the sole reason why DEATH entered the world.  Since death entered the world with Adam and Eve, which you claim were the result of millions of years of evolution, were all the creatures that were alive millions of years before them immortal?  The tradition of the Church Fathers on top of what Scripture explicitly states - on top of what the Church has declared cannot be taught (polygenism, etc) absolutely destroy any attempt at reconciling evolution with revealed Truth.  It is impossible.  Besides, we have INFALLIBLE Holy Scripture that states exactly how it occurred and the age of the earth, and we have the Pontifical Biblical Commission of 1909, whose dissent from was tantamount to dissent from the Pope, stating that "Genesis does not contain purified myths."  The reason why people try to force evolution into theology is because we have been led to believe a lie - we have been led to believe that evolution is infallible truth, and that the scientific community is another source of infallible truth - even when many are declared atheists.  Evolutionism is a theory, and scientists will bend and fabricate evidence to lift up that theory - and they will bury any evidence that outright destroys it or even causes it moderate damage, while they will fabricate other evidences that seem to harm their theory into helping it.  They do this because they need a belief system that removes God from the equation, thus creating their new religion of man.
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Catholic Tradition and Holy Scripture has always taught that Adam was created directly from the dust of the Earth.

If you believe in theistic evolution, then you would either have to claim there was no Adam and Eve, or you would have to claim that Adam's parents were apes.

So, which explanation seems "Catholic" and which seems "ridiculous"?
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(12-26-2010, 08:19 AM)Nic Wrote: Also, the theory of evolution states that once a creature evolves into something else, the former creature ceases to be.  Then why are there still apes around if humans came from apes?  Why are their still lizards around if birds came from lizards?  Their theory contradicts itself!

The theory of evolution states no such thing. Creatures don't evolve -- species do. No self-respecting scientist would claim that a specific individual ape changed into a man. That's not how it works. And I've never heard any evolutionist claim that species must necessarily disappear when new species evolve from them. Evolution and extinction are separate processes. If this is representative of the general level of "scientific" argument in the book, reading it would be a waste of time.
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(12-23-2010, 11:13 PM)Gladium Wrote: Why is it not possible to affirm the existence of Adam and Eve while accepting evolution? It is possible for two members of a pre-human form of life to have evolved, by God's guidance and direction and through his giving souls to them, into the first two humans. Then, original sin happened, and the dogma is preserved.

All others of the population (apart from Adam and Eve) would not have been given souls by God, so while they would have the physical characteristics of humans, they would not be human. Therefore, there were still only two original humans; the only difference is the method by which God created them.

There is a thorn in theistic evolution which, I think, has not been realized. First, on a side issue, the Scriptures speak of God creating the animals on the sixth day according to their "kind". This, I think, is a serious problem because if the animals were created in that manner, it can be inferred that they were complete species and did not evolve throughout time. But a more serious problem, resides with the issue of Original Sin. It is said that, death entered the world through the sin of the First Parents. Literally, their sin threw the whole order of creation into disarray and disturbed the natural equilibrium thus introducing death and discord in natural creation. If evolution did occur as stipulated, there is a serious problem involved. Indeed, evolution is as defined, an unguided process which through the concourse of chance produced the different forms of life out of non-living water. Because the process is unguided, there is enormous trial and error involved in the process. This of course, is Darwinian evolution as defined in current thinking. If we speak of theistic evolution, there still remains the issue of explaining how it is that death could have existed in a perfect universe before the appearance of man. Evolution, requires that the different forms of life go through successive forms which are always more adapted to their natural environment. For this reason, it puts into question the whole edifice of God's benevolence and perfection in his creation of the world. If evolution did occur, it involves that, the world as it came into being was not perfect. And this, seriously refutes the idea that imperfection entered creation through the Sin of the Origins.

On another side note, there is also the problem of time. Darwinian evolution requires eons of time to occur whereas the Sacred Scriptures record that God created the world in six days which I believe, were literal 24 hour days. If that is the case, Darwinian evolution is seriously put into question. Of course, one can still surmise that if God did evolve the animal - and plant - forms for that matter, He could have accomplished it in a relatively little amount of time. And in a sense, that would be true if one were to accept evolution as true. But let us ask ourselves the following question. If God is able to create the world and everything it contains through the natural process of evolution, why not hypothesize that He put forth his creation directly and immediately within a span of six days. It would stand to reason that, since God is omnipotent He can produce life and its variety of forms in a very limited amount of time without requiring to subordinate himself to the laws which He himself created.
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