Why claim that smoking is not a sin?
Revixit & Nic, I think you guys are turning this into a witchhunt for no good reason. There are people on the forum that are ten times more uncharitable and bossy than Jayne ever is but you seem to single her out with ad hominems, accusing her of being judgmental and being a heretic, just because you seem to disagree with her. If she was your sister in law it'd be one thing, but this is the internet after all, it's a bit crazy for you guys to so confidently proclaim that you know the intents of people's hearts based on things they've written
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No they're not
besides Jaynes tough and can handle herself
sip sip
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(02-15-2011, 02:35 AM)Revixit Wrote:
(02-13-2011, 02:48 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(02-13-2011, 02:41 PM)CanadianCatholic Wrote:
(02-13-2011, 02:24 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(02-13-2011, 12:30 PM)CanadianCatholic Wrote: Go outside and have a smoke, or stay inside and rage on my kids....you tell me which one sounds more sinful.

Are those really the only two choices open to you?
Pretty much yeah...or have a couple shots of whiskey...but I have ALOT of driving to so in a day, so smoking it is.

If you can go outside and smoke, you ought to be able to go outside and pray.



I know that being uncharitable and self-righteous are sins, because Jesus said so in the Gospels (two separate citations below.)  You were both uncharitable and self-righteous in your comment to CC, Jayne.  There was no reason for you to reply in such a rude manner.

CC had made it clear that she didn't want your advice about smoking with her last comment about substituting drinking for smoking and the reason that wouldn't work well for her.  Instead of taking her hint and letting the topic die, you chose to make a "helpful hint."  Your suggestion "If you can go outside and smoke, you ought to be able to go outside and pray" is an insinuation that she doesn't pray enough or perhaps doesn't pray properly.  

CC was making the logical fallacy of false dichotomy - stating a situation as if there are only two choices when there are many more.  I was not sure that she is familiar with that terminology so I tried to make the point another way.  The phrase "you tell me what is more sinful" communicates to me that she was asking for my opinion, so I gave it to her.  I certainly did not mean to insinuate anything about her prayer life.  I meant that if she has enough self-control to choose to go outside rather than shout at her children (which I happen to admire) it does not follow that she has to smoke when she is outside.
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(02-15-2011, 08:36 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: No they're not
besides Jaynes tough and can handle herself
sip sip

I know she can. I do want to speak up on behalf of the lurkers too.

(02-15-2011, 07:25 AM)Nic Wrote: Popess JayneK has made an official declaration!

Calling her Popess Jayne is accusing her of being a heretic. Why doesn't Nic use that on sedes that pop up? It's also an insult to the Holy Father to suggest someone else is claiming his throne.

(02-15-2011, 02:35 AM)Revixit Wrote: Last I heard, Benedict XVI was still Pope and the Catholic Church still doesn't ordain women so you are really not in a position to tell anyone to pray more or that smoking is a sin.  

Since when is one Catholic woman not allowed to admonish another Catholic woman?

Like, come on DK, is there basically no minimum level of decorum? I guess not. Why don't we all just accuse each other of being Pharisees and anti-Popes if there are any areas of disagreement. It's completely ridiculous. This thread is about honest inquiry into church teaching, not bossing people around. But I guess some folk love to scream and curse if they get their toes stepped on.
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(02-15-2011, 07:25 AM)Nic Wrote: Popess JayneK has made an official declaration!

Again, show me ONE official Church documentation, without any ambiguity, that states outright that smoking is sinful - and not from the Modernist Catechism you use.

Nic, you are the one who is taking the authority of the Pope to yourself.  You seem to think that you get to decide what are the official documents of the Church.  Real popes have said that the Catechism of the Catholic Church contains the official teaching of the Catholic Church.
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Mmmmmmm
I'll try an icecram here
Jayne has good comeback, nic is on fire. Who will extinguish  or set the thread to flame?
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(02-15-2011, 12:13 AM)Martinus Wrote: I was just allowing for the position that 'we should take the Surgeon General seriously' and arguing that, even then, I don't think there's sufficient reason to believe that smoking is harmful to the extent that it would be a sin to do it.

I think you are making a good point.  If we assume the principle that smoking that harms oneself or others constitutes excessive smoking and is therefore a sin, the sinfulness depends on how harmful the person believes smoking to be, rather than the objective amount of harm done. 
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(02-14-2011, 10:28 PM)Martinus Wrote: To be honest, and I know this isn't a strong argument in favour of my side of the moral debate, this is just my personal experience, there are plenty of things of far more certain immorality that I have to worry about.

I think this is a very strong argument.  This could be a proportionate reason to justify the harm done by smoking.  If a person needed to put the effort required to quit smoking into fighting a more serious/ certain sin, that could be a good reason to continue to smoke.  I wonder how common this is.  If many smokers are doing this, then I was wrong in my initial conclusion that most smokers are sinning.
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(02-15-2011, 10:18 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: Mmmmmmm
I'll try an icecram here
Jayne has good comeback, nic is on fire. Who will extinguish  or set the thread to flame?
Smoke 'em if ya got 'em, boys!
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(02-15-2011, 07:38 AM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: Revixit & Nic, I think you guys are turning this into a witchhunt for no good reason. There are people on the forum that are ten times more uncharitable and bossy than Jayne ever is but you seem to single her out with ad hominems, accusing her of being judgmental and being a heretic, just because you seem to disagree with her. If she was your sister in law it'd be one thing, but this is the internet after all, it's a bit crazy for you guys to so confidently proclaim that you know the intents of people's hearts based on things they've written

Jayne is the one trying to organize a witchhunt against smokers, claiming that she just knows smoking is a sin.  The Catholic Church does not teach that smoking is a sin but Jayne apparently thinks she knows better than the Church on this issue.  The burden of proof is on her and she hasn't met it.  

In the course of the thread, Jayne made a rude, self-righteous, and uncharitable comment to CC.  I pointed that out since no one else had.  

If I had been committing the logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem, I'd have tried to claim that Jayne's rude, self-righteous, and uncharitable comment proves that she is wrong about smoking being sinful.  But it proves no such thing so I did not say it did, did not commit that fallacy.

It is irrelevant that others here may be bossier or less charitable than Jayne.  Jayne made an uncharitable, self-righteous, rude comment and I told her so.  She's now trying to weasel out of having made an uncharitable, self-righteous, rude comment  by saying:

"CC was making the logical fallacy of false dichotomy - stating a situation as if there are only two choices when there are many more.  I was not sure that she is familiar with that terminology so I tried to make the point another way.  The phrase "you tell me what is more sinful" communicates to me that she was asking for my opinion, so I gave it to her."

Notice how Jayne states that CC was committing a logical fallacy, as if we were in a formal debate competition here, which we are not.  We are just discussing issues in a discussion forum.  Then she says she "was not sure that CC would be familiar with that terminology", which implies that CC is not as educated or intelligent as Jayne.  More self-righteousness and uncharitableness and PRIDE from Jayne.

Jayne then says "The phrase "you tell me what is more sinful" communicates to me that she was asking for my opinion, so I gave it to her."  

Apparently, Jayne can't tell when someone is actually asking for her opinion and when they're telling her to buzz off so whatever education and intelligence she has, she is lacking in common sense.

Bakuryosoko, your comments indicate that you need a better understanding of what argumentum ad hominem is, as do most people.  It is not a critical or sarcastic remark, an attack, an insult, or even name calling, and I don't think Nic or I have engaged in it in this thread, though I haven't looked that carefully at his posts because we're not having a formal debate here, nor am I grading students' essays arguing a point of view, so I don't look for logical fallacies.  

Read all of this page to learn ad hominem means and what it doesn't mean:

http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html

It's pretty funny because it gives many examples, each more outrageous than the last, to clearly teach what is ad hominem and what isn't.  Warning: profanity.

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