There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest
#51
(02-20-2011, 04:14 PM)Melkite Wrote: Ok, so having all those nice things, as long as you're not putting them above God, and you're not doing or having them as an escape from one's cross or to avoid dealing with tribulation, isn't what is being condemned there by effeminacy?  Good to know :)

No, but some of those nice things might be condemned as being against the virtue of temperance.

Quote:Temperance

Temperance it is which restrains the undue impulse of concupiscence for sensible pleasure, while fortitude causes man to be brave when he would otherwise shrink, contrary to reason, from dangers or difficulties. Temperance, then, to consider it more particularly, is that moral virtue which moderates in accordance with reason the desires and pleasures of the sensuous appetite attendant on those acts by which human nature is preserved in the individual or propagated in the species. The subordinate species of temperance are:

abstinence, which disposes to moderation in the use of food;

sobriety, which inclines to moderation in the use of spirituous liquors;

chastity, which regulates the appetite in regard to sexual pleasures; to chastity may be reduced modesty, which is concerned with acts subordinate to the act of reproduction.

The virtues annexed to temperance are:

continence, which according to the Scholastics, restrains the will from consenting to violent movements or concupiscence;

humility, which restrains inordinate desires of one's own excellence;

meekness, which checks inordinate movements of anger;

modesty or decorum, which consists in duly ordering the external movements of anger; to the direction of reason.

To this virtue may be reduced to what Aristotle designated as eutrapelia, or good cheer, which disposes to moderation in sports, games, and jests, in accordance with the dictates of reason, taking into consideration the circumstance of person, season, and place.
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#52
(02-20-2011, 04:29 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(02-20-2011, 04:22 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: if i had to choose between working 20 hrs for $85K so I could do things around the house I'd rather work 35 hrs for 150K and have 12 kids.

Massage therapists can't do that.  If we worked 35 hours a week every week, we'd break our bodies in 5 years and have to find another career.  I'm never getting married or having kids though, so $85K is more than enough for me.

Break your body? What sort of massages are these?

People work in physical, dangerous jobs 40 hours a week or more, for years, without breaking their bodies.

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#53
(02-20-2011, 04:35 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(02-20-2011, 04:29 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(02-20-2011, 04:22 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: if i had to choose between working 20 hrs for $85K so I could do things around the house I'd rather work 35 hrs for 150K and have 12 kids.

Massage therapists can't do that.  If we worked 35 hours a week every week, we'd break our bodies in 5 years and have to find another career.  I'm never getting married or having kids though, so $85K is more than enough for me.

Break your body? What sort of massages are these?

People work in physical, dangerous jobs 40 hours a week or more, for years, without breaking their bodies.

I guess it's some of the positions you have to put and hold yourself in for some of the movements.  That's what we were told in school.  And having worked 6 hours back to back a few times before, massage can really drain you and break your body.
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#54
Very interesting thread.
Quis and Johnny.
Ive been tracking both sides and I have questions for both to keep this going (of course you dont have to answer)
I tend to side with Johnny so far even though it is hard because I am biased in Quis' favor as a general rule.

Quis: Do you think people are born with homosexual tendency's?
And do you have a personal bias you wish to reveal  that might make it hard for you to concede certain points? (ie / a friend , acquaintance or family member who self Identifys as a homosexual)

Johnny: Do you still stand by the statement that a homosexual cant be a christian, or do you wish to make the Statement more precise?( such as homosexual-ITY and Christian-ITY cannot be practiced at the same time)
And do you reject the teaching that a person is a priest forever once anointed as such by proper authority.

And can a wicked priest confect the sacraments within his authority as priest.?

And do you have any personal bias against homosexual priests, or homosexuals?


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#55
The original post is Donatist. Donatism is a heresy refuted long ago by St. Augustine and condemned by the Catholic Church.

Although one can be a Catholic with same sex attraction and a great saint, or a Catholic -- even a priest -- who engages in homosexual activity and therefore in mortal sin, one cannot be both a Catholic and a Donatist (assuming there is formal heresy and not simply material heresy).

I would urge the original poster to discuss his thoughts with a traditional priest as soon as possible.

:owl:
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#56
(02-20-2011, 05:52 PM)ImpyTerwilliger Wrote: The original post is Donatist. Donatism is a heresy refuted long ago by St. Augustine and condemned by the Catholic Church.

Although one can be a Catholic with same sex attraction and a great saint, or a Catholic -- even a priest -- who engages in homosexual activity and therefore in mortal sin, one cannot be both a Catholic and a Donatist (assuming there is formal heresy and not simply material heresy).

I would urge the original poster to discuss his thoughts with a traditional priest as soon as possible.

:owl:
we shall see, its a reasonable accusation..... but I dont think there is enough evidence to convict.
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#57
(02-20-2011, 05:36 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: Quis: Do you think people are born with homosexual tendency's?

My personal opinion is that it is a mixed bag.  Some people are born that way, others come to be that through their environment, and for others it's a kink or fetish.  I don't think there is a single reason people are attracted to the same sex.

Quote:And do you have a personal bias you wish to reveal  that might make it hard for you to concede certain points? (ie / a friend , acquaintance or family member who self Identifys as a homosexual)

I know people who identify as homosexual but they aren't close friends - more like acquaintances.  As far as in the family, no, I don't know anyone who is - not in the immediate family, cousins, etc.

To answer your quesiton, I don't think that biases me any more than the fact I know people who are Protestants, thieves, Zoroastrians, liars, etc.  Right is right, wrong is wrong, and Catholic theology is what it is.  We can't make the theology say what we want to fit our own biases.
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#58
yeah well I couldnt imagine doing 7 hours of staright massages a day. You could pray the entire divine office in your spare time. What is the melkite breviary like? I suppose it's not even called that
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#59
(02-20-2011, 10:18 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(02-20-2011, 05:36 PM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: Quis: Do you think people are born with homosexual tendency's?

My personal opinion is that it is a mixed bag.  Some people are born that way, others come to be that through their environment, and for others it's a kink or fetish.  I don't think there is a single reason people are attracted to the same sex.

Quote:And do you have a personal bias you wish to reveal  that might make it hard for you to concede certain points? (ie / a friend , acquaintance or family member who self Identifys as a homosexual)

I know people who identify as homosexual but they aren't close friends - more like acquaintances.  As far as in the family, no, I don't know anyone who is - not in the immediate family, cousins, etc.

To answer your quesiton, I don't think that biases me any more than the fact I know people who are Protestants, thieves, Zoroastrians, liars, etc.  Right is right, wrong is wrong, and Catholic theology is what it is.  We can't make the theology say what we want to fit our own biases.
fair enough, so then those you say are born with these desires are made by God that way, therefore having sex with their own gender is no sin?
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#60
Quote:Why would St. Paul be condemning homosexual behavior twice?  I.e., "effeminate" and "liers with mankind"?  He's not.

Yes he is.  Effeminate refers to those who are passive in the sodomitic act (receive penile penetration) and liers with mankind refers to those who are active (perpetrate the penetration).  This would be very evident to the Corinthians to whom Paul is writing as the ritual prostitution of both males and females (as well as aristocratic pederasty) was widely practiced in Corinth's cult of Aphrodite.

The Fathers you quote do not deny this; they go further into the causes of this perversion in perfect agreement with St. Paul's doctrine in Romans 1 that the rejection of God in the mind leads to depravity of life.  This also agrees with the Lord's proclamation through the Prophet Ezekiel on the causes of the outrageous perversions in Sodom and Gomorrah:

Quote:"Behold this was the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance, and the idleness of her, and of her daughters: and they did not put forth their hand to the needy, and to the poor.  And they were lifted up, and committed abominations before me: and I took them away as thou hast seen."  Ez. 16:49-50

Douay-Rheims Bible also adds this commentary:
[49] "This was the iniquity of Sodom"... That is, these were the steps by which the Sodomites came to fall into those abominations for which they were destroyed. For pride, gluttony, and idleness are the highroad to all kinds of lust; especially when they are accompanied with a neglect of the works of mercy.

Surely you won't argue that the men of Sodom were not depraved homosexuals!

In any event, it is the New Birth in Christ that is the issue here.
"If so be that you have heard him, and have been taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus: To put off, according to former conversation, the old man, who is corrupted according to the desire of error. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind: And put on the new man, who according to God is created in justice and holiness of truth." Eph.4:21-24

How can the new man created by God in justice and holiness of truth be defined by a proclivity to mortal sin? And what is the renewing of the mind?

"Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally; And you are filled in him, who is the head of all principality and power." Colossians 2:8-10

God has made us new creations in Christ - literally recreated us in Him!
"If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new." 2 Cor. 5:17
and "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Galatians 6:15

I could go on and on and on - this is the basic message of the New Testament. God calls all men everywhere to repent and receive the grace of conversion in Jesus Christ. This is a radical reorienting away from the way this world thinks and operates (Rom. 12:1-2) to the new life of supernatural grace in Christ:

"For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will." Phil. 2:13

There is no room here for clinging to a homosexual identity without a formal or material denial of Christ's work in the regenerated Christian.



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