Predestination, for us stupider folks
#91
(04-08-2011, 10:32 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(04-08-2011, 12:33 AM)randomtradguy Wrote: So does God love some people more than others?

Of course.

Go on...
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#92
(04-08-2011, 08:57 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(04-08-2011, 10:32 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(04-08-2011, 12:33 AM)randomtradguy Wrote: So does God love some people more than others?

Of course.

Go on...

Well, Vetus is correct.  The key to understanding this truth is realizing that the proper object of Love is the Good.  Love is an affection of the will toward Good.  Thus God loves most what is most good.  Therefore, in the first place, God loves Himself.  Relationally, the Father obviously loves the Son more than any creature.

God then loves the blessed angels and saints as His true friends.  They are holy and truly good, thus more worthy of His love.  Foremost among the angels and saints is the Blessed Mother.  God loves her more than any other creature.

Then God loves the saints suffering and the saints militant.  Anyone in a state of grace is more beloved by God than someone not in a state of grace.

God hates satan, the demons, and the souls of the damned.
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#93
(04-08-2011, 10:28 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote:
(04-08-2011, 08:57 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(04-08-2011, 10:32 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(04-08-2011, 12:33 AM)randomtradguy Wrote: So does God love some people more than others?

Of course.

Go on...

Well, Vetus is correct.  The key to understanding this truth is realizing that the proper object of Love is the Good.  Love is an affection of the will toward Good.  Thus God loves most what is most good.  Therefore, in the first place, God loves Himself.  Relationally, the Father obviously loves the Son more than any creature.

God then loves the blessed angels and saints as His true friends.  They are holy and truly good, thus more worthy of His love.  Foremost among the angels and saints is the Blessed Mother.  God loves her more than any other creature.

Then God loves the saints suffering and the saints militant.  Anyone in a state of grace is more beloved by God than someone not in a state of grace.

God hates satan, the demons, and the souls of the damned.

This.
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#94
God loves most what is most good.  But it is because of God's love that goodness exists at all.
Because God loved Our Lady the most, therefore He gave Her the most goodness of all, in Her Immaculate Conception.  We can't take goodness to our own credit, and then God loves us.  It is His love that gives us goodness; our good willing is (in the ultimate but mysterious sense) due to his Love. To God be the glory.
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#95
(04-10-2011, 12:18 AM)Doce Me Wrote: God loves most what is most good.  But it is because of God's love that goodness exists at all.
Because God loved Our Lady the most, therefore He gave Her the most goodness of all, in Her Immaculate Conception.  We can't take goodness to our own credit, and then God loves us.  It is His love that gives us goodness; our good willing is (in the ultimate but mysterious sense) due to his Love. To God be the glory.

True, therein lies the mystery of predestination.
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#96
Randomtradguy,
Let me explain why no one can perfectly give you an answer.  I'll pick on C.I., though what he writes is perfectly orthodox and I agree with.  BUT, analyze what he wrote from the point of view of God:

Quote:God loves her far more than he loves you or me.  He predestined her to be the mother of His Son. 
False.  There is no "pre" with God.  "Before Abraham I AM". 
Quote:He gave her the gift of the Immaculate Conception prior to any merit of hers or act of will,
  There is no "gave" as that would be in the past, just as there is no "prior"
Quote:He bestowed upon her graces that He will never bestow on anyone else and privileged her above all other creatures.
  There was no past tense "bestowed" or "privileged" with God.

Quote:Furthermore, He willed all of this efficaciously, i.e. it was never in question whether the Virgin would say "fiat" to God's plan.
"would" is meaningless with God, or whether, or a question.  "Willed" is in the past tense.

Quote:Nonetheless, the Blessed Mother did say "fiat" of her own will and is worthy of our utmost praise.
"Did say" is past tense.  meaningless with regards to God.

I hope I prove my point.  We, stuck in time, are trying to explain an infinitely superior being that is outside of time.  It can't be done.  So what the Church does (and this is more Augustinian, in my opinion) is to provide a framework.  That is limits to what you can say.  So you can't deny free will, and you can't deny predestination.  Repeating myself, Molinism is interesting because it presupposed (per impossibile) that God is in time, then shows how free will and predestination can coexist while avoiding any contradiction, though WITHOUT necessarily saying why God predestines some to election.
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#97
James,

The manner in which I am speaking is perfectly consonant with the Scriptures themselves, which speak of God in time in reference to us.

Quote: For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son: that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren.  And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30

The Apostle says "foreknew" and "predestinated."  It can't be helped if you want to have an illustrative conversation on the topic.  We should, as you pointed out, keep in mind God's timelessness, but I don't see that this changes the substance of what I wrote.
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#98
I personally recommend Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange's treatment of the topic in Reality.  He provides at some length the Thomistic critique of Molina's scientia media.
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#99
I apologize that this is a little off-discussion, but it's not entirely off-topic. I'm currently doing a philosophy paper on free will and predestination as they relate to philosophical concepts (determinism, hard determinism, etc.). I'm using an Augustinian framework to analyze Aquinas' and Calvin's beliefs on the subject. Seems to me that Calvin is a hard determinist. But as far as Aquinas and Augustine, I haven't quite decided what they are. So how would one classify St. Augustine, St. Thomas, and John Calvin on this scale? I'm planning on using the Summa to show Aquinas' position, and Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion to show his. What is the best source to grab hold of St. Augustine's general idea of predestination?
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CI,
Like I said, everything you wrote is orthodox, and I agree to it within limits.  My point was we humans stuck in time can't even explain it properly, as we are stuck in time.  Which is why I like the framework route the Church has set up.

It is impossible, no matter how you try, to understand: "Before Abraham, I Am".  It is impossible for humans to TRULY comprehend how this work.  We just say God is outside of time.  Which is true, of course.
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