Predestination, for us stupider folks
(04-10-2011, 11:49 PM)Dante Alighieri Wrote: What is the best source to grab hold of St. Augustine's general idea of predestination?

On the Predestination of the Saints - St. Augustine
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(04-11-2011, 08:18 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(04-10-2011, 11:49 PM)Dante Alighieri Wrote: What is the best source to grab hold of St. Augustine's general idea of predestination?

On the Predestination of the Saints - St. Augustine

Thanks!

P.S. Your handle is actually one I've used in non-religious related sites. Nice!

P.P.S. /end thread derail
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(04-11-2011, 10:07 PM)Dante Alighieri Wrote:
(04-11-2011, 08:18 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote:
(04-10-2011, 11:49 PM)Dante Alighieri Wrote: What is the best source to grab hold of St. Augustine's general idea of predestination?

On the Predestination of the Saints - St. Augustine

Thanks!

P.S. Your handle is actually one I've used in non-religious related sites. Nice!

P.P.S. /end thread derail

For an excellent reference type book, read the Teachings of the Church Fathers by John Willis. It has excerpts from the fathers relating to Catholic Dogmas. Among them, is the questions regarding free will, predestination, and actual and habitual grace. The book is a great apologetic weapon. It is priceless to me.
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Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, predestination tends to be a stumbling block for me.  In the Catholic understanding of predestination, would it be correct to say that everyone who goes to heaven was predestined to do so, or is it like all people that are predestined to go to heaven, go to heaven, but not all people who go to heaven are predestined to go there?
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I know, Melkite, I'm still confused and I started the thread. All I want to know is if God planned for me to heaven before before the world was made, or not.
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According to Thomists (the position I hold), the elect are chosen by God.  Everyone receives "sufficient grace" to be saved, but the elect receive "efficacious grace."  The elect cooperate of their free wills, but God efficaciously wills their salvation.

This position, I think, gives us the proper framework of humility in beholding God's plan of salvation.  According to Molina, God could give one man more grace than another, but through free will, the man who received less grace could be saved and the man who received more grace could be damned. 

This is unacceptable to the Thomist.  If we are Catholics, if we are in the state of grace, we ought to believe that it is because we have received more grace.  It is the gift of God, so that no man may boast.

Lastly, the gift of final perseverance comes only through grace and God grants it only to whom He freely wills.  Even if we have lived our lives in the state of grace, receiving the sacraments, unless we receive the final grace, we will surely fall into hell.  This is why we pray the Hail Mary continuously, "pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."
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Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange puts it roughly this way: If we are saved, it is because God has efficaciously willed it and given us the grace which actualizes this salvation.  If we are damned, it is our own fault.  The damned received sufficient grace but did not cooperate with it. 
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(04-12-2011, 12:19 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote: Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange puts it roughly this way: If we are saved, it is because God has efficaciously willed it and given us the grace which actualizes this salvation.  If we are damned, it is our own fault.  The damned received sufficient grace but did not cooperate with it. 

That's where it doesn't make sense.  If we are saved, it is only because God gave us extra grace, but if God doesn't give us extra grace, then we can't be saved, but it is our own fault that we aren't saved?  That makes no sense.  If salvation is purely a gift, there's nothing we can do to earn it, then it can't be our fault if we go to hell, because unless God wills to give us a particular grace, we couldn't go to heaven even if we wanted to.  That is, if God predestines someone to heaven, and that predestination means the person has been given efficacious grace - something man cannot demand but can only receive from God - then to those who God does not choose to give efficacious grace, he must necessarily predestine them to hell because there is no way for the person to get to heaven without receiving something that only God can give them willingly.  If the only way I can build a house is with a hammer that only God can give me, and God chooses not to give it to me, how can it possibly be my fault if I can't build the house?  I think I must definitely be a Molinist (hopefully it's not a heresy to be so?).
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I like Molinism.
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(04-12-2011, 12:42 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(04-12-2011, 12:19 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote: Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange puts it roughly this way: If we are saved, it is because God has efficaciously willed it and given us the grace which actualizes this salvation.  If we are damned, it is our own fault.  The damned received sufficient grace but did not cooperate with it. 

That's where it doesn't make sense.  If we are saved, it is only because God gave us extra grace, but if God doesn't give us extra grace, then we can't be saved, but it is our own fault that we aren't saved?  That makes no sense.  If salvation is purely a gift, there's nothing we can do to earn it, then it can't be our fault if we go to hell, because unless God wills to give us a particular grace, we couldn't go to heaven even if we wanted to.  That is, if God predestines someone to heaven, and that predestination means the person has been given efficacious grace - something man cannot demand but can only receive from God - then to those who God does not choose to give efficacious grace, he must necessarily predestine them to hell because there is no way for the person to get to heaven without receiving something that only God can give them willingly.  If the only way I can build a house is with a hammer that only God can give me, and God chooses not to give it to me, how can it possibly be my fault if I can't build the house?  I think I must definitely be a Molinist (hopefully it's not a heresy to be so?).

It makes a lot of sense and it follows from the plain sense of everything St. Paul teaches.  It is just difficult for people to accept.  There is a big difference between hard to accept and nonsensical.
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