Another EENS, please be patient...
BUt the punishment of those who die in original sin alone is hell. No matter what form or how intense, it is nonetheless punishment in hell. Therefore, it contradicts what Bl. Pope Pius IX said. So we need to understand him differently unless we want to believe that such a wonderful Pope disregarded Dogma...

Southpawlink, I appreciate your response. Again, I do not think it is subjective interpretation to simply read what the council says. It makes it clear: TO desire baptism is not being justified by it. It is being disposed toward justice. The actual justification itself follows the disposition, the instrumental cause of which is sacramental water baptism. I do not know how that is not clear.
Reply
(05-14-2011, 06:47 PM)Gregory I Wrote: BUt the punishment of those who die in original sin alone is hell. No matter what form or how intense, it is nonetheless punishment in hell. Therefore, it contradicts what Bl. Pope Pius IX said. So we need to understand him differently unless we want to believe that such a wonderful Pope disregarded Dogma...

Southpawlink, I appreciate your response. Again, I do not think it is subjective interpretation to simply read what the council says. It makes it clear: TO desire baptism is not being justified by it. It is being disposed toward justice. The actual justification itself follows the disposition, the instrumental cause of which is sacramental water baptism. I do not know how that is not clear.


@ Gregory I

Just worry about yourself and don´t sin mortally!
Reply
Let me put this back on course with my last major question: Where is BOD in the ordinary magisterial documents, our immediate sources of faith? Where is it taught in the magisterium that in the observance of a false religion a man will be saved, provided he simply be honest? Or where is it taught that those who are ignorant of salvation will be saved because they are inculpable?
Reply
(05-14-2011, 11:56 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Let me put this back on course with my last major question: Where is BOD in the ordinary magisterial documents, our immediate sources of faith? Where is it taught in the magisterium that in the observance of a false religion a man will be saved, provided he simply be honest? Or where is it taught that those who are ignorant of salvation will be saved because they are inculpable?

The bolded section was condemned by Gregory XVI in Mirari Vos (n. 13): http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16mirar.htm

If you look back over my posts on this thread, it's obvious that neither I nor the sources I cited understand baptism of desire to be the same thing as religious indifference, because I've repeatedly stressed the necessity of divine faith for salvation.
Reply
Ok, I agree. But how can divine and Catholic Faith be had by a person who is ignorant? Does GOd infuse grace against people's will? Obviously it must be a choice, but how can any ever choose when they do not know WHAT to choose?
Reply
Quote: “Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.” – Athanasian Creed

Quote: “[T]he instrumental cause [of justification] is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which faith no man was ever justified (Council of Trent, Chapter VII)
Reply
St. Francis Xavier, S.J.  - upon landing in India and Japan as a catholic missionary of God to the heathens and pagans who were on their way to hell-  asked of God only one thing:  "Give me souls! "
Reply
I am so glad you mentioned St. Francis Xavier. See, he didn't espouse implicit BOD or the notion that the invincibly ignorant who could not hear the gospel would be saved:

" Before their Baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not
appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before,
especially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve
over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free
them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obligated to answer: there is absolutely none."

-Saint Francis Xavier-

There's the Post-Tridentine Understanding in Action for you. Ignorance does not exist as a condition of innocence; Ignorance is a punishment for either sinfulness, or the effects of original sin. It's not an innocent accident.

" Reflect on the ruin of souls wrought by this single cause: ignorance of truths which must be known
by all men alike in order that they may attain eternal salvation. This we solemnly affirm: the majority
of those condemned to eternal punishment fall into everlasting misfortune through ignorance of the
Mysteries of the faith, which must necessarily be known and believed by all who belong to the Elect."

Pope Saint Pius X

SO in order to be among the elect, that is those who are predestined for heaven, you must have a knowledge of the truths of the Catholic Faith. All men are obliged to know these truths, apart from which none are saved. Seems clear here. Invincible ignorance is not a real excuse, therefore Implicit BOD is moot, since all men are obligated to know.

But what if they CANNOT know? Well, then we must assume they are reprobate: God in his wisdom has chosen not to give them the grace necessary for salvation. "Those who are of God hear the words of God; but you do not hear because you are not of God."

If they WOULD have believed, they would have known. But since God knows mens hearts and decided to not allow them to know the truth, it can only be on account of their own sinfulness, whereby they are condemned. God loves all, but he has allowed some, in light of their sinfulness, to come to ruin, that the glory of His mercy may shine more clearly, and that His justice may be trembled at and worshiped as most wise, above all human wisdom.
Reply
We must therefore... all of us.... be missionaries like St. Francis Xavier and the Canadian Martyrs like the french Fr. Jogues, Lalemant, DeBroef....
Reply
NIce to see you agree with me. And I agree with you, we should do the best we can according to our state in life. If any truly desire God out there, he will not leave them destitue, he will furnish them with that SOLE faith which is pleasing to him.

But if he does not...he has his reasons. BUt let's never think that they can be saved apart from confessing the truths of the faith, i.e. In invincible ignorance. Ignorance is a penalty for sin.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)