Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan.
(05-22-2011, 07:01 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(05-22-2011, 03:59 PM)PeterII Wrote: And how do we determine that someone is possessed to begin with?

We don't determine anything.  The Church appoints specialists to investigate these matters. Exorcists.  They determine based on teaching, experience, outside consultation and the authority invested in them whether the person is disturbed, obsessed or possessed.  They not only consult doctors but they also bring in "sensitives" who are believed to have a charism for discerning spirits.

There is no absolute pattern, no way to profile a potential victim of possession.  The Exorcists state that they never know for sure until the demon manifests itself during the conflict stage of the exorcism.  Some are easy, most cases are simple cases of obsession and there are periodically very difficult cases that last over extended periods of time.  Some are quick with wild displays of phenomena, some are slow with no manifestations, some cases are determined to have been distractions for priests in order to keep them away from a dying person in need of last rites.   The variety is extreme according to virtually every known exorcist who has put their experiences down on paper or in interviews it's consistennt among  Fr. Amorth, Fr. Lebar, Fr. Fortea, Fr. Martin, Fr. Bowdern, Fr. Euteneuer. 

You can read this if you're interested:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/BEGONESA.htm

Fr. Lebar was one of the priests on that famous 20/20 episode 20 years ago that recorded an exorcism.  Clearly, these things can be recorded and subject to review.
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(05-22-2011, 08:09 PM)PeterII Wrote: Fr. Lebar was one of the priests on that famous 20/20 episode 20 years ago that recorded an exorcism.  Clearly, these things can be recorded and subject to review.

That's part of the review, but the review doesn't hinge on it.  The Devil is not stupid and if he thinks he can undermine the credibility of exorcism by not manifesting any unusual signs, he won't. 

Do you view Fr. Lebar (RIP) as being credible?
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(05-22-2011, 10:16 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(05-22-2011, 08:09 PM)PeterII Wrote: Fr. Lebar was one of the priests on that famous 20/20 episode 20 years ago that recorded an exorcism.  Clearly, these things can be recorded and subject to review.

That's part of the review, but the review doesn't hinge on it.  The Devil is not stupid and if he thinks he can undermine the credibility of exorcism by not manifesting any unusual signs, he won't. 

Do you view Fr. Lebar (RIP) as being credible?

I think he was sincere, but credibility is determined by the scientific evidence on a case by case basis.  Not manifesting unusual signs undermines the credibility of exorcism as much if not more so.  Catholics are distinguished from Protestants in that we don't rely on faith alone and don't need the hype. 
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(05-23-2011, 12:14 AM)PeterII Wrote: I think he was sincere, but credibility is determined by the scientific evidence on a case by case basis. 

Fr. Lebar has related events that are equal to or surpass the phenomena that Fr. Amorth and Fr. Martin have expressed. 

You seem to be demanding that scientific evidence be the authority on proving supernatural or preternatural forces.  That is beyond the scope and competence of scientific explanation.

Quote: Not manifesting unusual signs undermines the credibility of exorcism as much if not more so. 

So, why would a demon put on a show that would increase the credibility of the ritual that expells it from the possessed? 

Exorcism doesn't need credibility from the outside world.  The Church approves it and directs it, the priests have the power of exorcist and they use it on the possessed.  Those that don't believe in it are either irrelevant to it, or out of luck if they are under siege and don't even know it. 

Quote:  Catholics are distinguished from Protestants in that we don't rely on faith alone and don't need the hype. 

Wrong. Belief in the real presence and transubstantiation is pure faith. 
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Duel
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Beat Up
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Gerard Wrote:Fr. Lebar has related events that are equal to or surpass the phenomena that Fr. Amorth and Fr. Martin have expressed. 

You seem to be demanding that scientific evidence be the authority on proving supernatural or preternatural forces.  That is beyond the scope and competence of scientific explanation.

The Church herself calls for scientific investigation before proceeding with exorcism to determine if a natural explanation is present. 

Gerard Wrote:So, why would a demon put on a show that would increase the credibility of the ritual that expells it from the possessed? 

Because the power of Christ compels them to.

Gerard Wrote:Wrong. Belief in the real presence and transubstantiation is pure faith. 

Then is the miracle of Lanciano a man made deception?
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(05-23-2011, 08:18 PM)PeterII Wrote: The Church herself calls for scientific investigation before proceeding with exorcism to determine if a natural explanation is present. 

Yes and when there is no explanation, they can opt for the exorcism.  What's the scientific data needed to determine whether nails were transported into a person's stomach or throat?  Padre Pio didn't allow himself to be photographed if he didn't want to.  What's the scientific evidence that it was miraculous? 

Quote: Because the power of Christ compels them to.

The power of Christ doesn't compel them to resist with extraordinary phenomena, the power of Christ tells them to leave. 

Quote: Then is the miracle of Lanciano a man made deception?

I don't know. It's never been high on my radar.  It's a matter of faith and if the Church approves veneration of it, that's good enough for me. 
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(05-23-2011, 09:57 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(05-23-2011, 08:18 PM)PeterII Wrote: The Church herself calls for scientific investigation before proceeding with exorcism to determine if a natural explanation is present. 

Yes and when there is no explanation, they can opt for the exorcism.  What's the scientific data needed to determine whether nails were transported into a person's stomach or throat?  Padre Pio didn't allow himself to be photographed if he didn't want to.  What's the scientific evidence that it was miraculous?   

Quote: Because the power of Christ compels them to.

The power of Christ doesn't compel them to resist with extraordinary phenomena, the power of Christ tells them to leave. 

Quote: Then is the miracle of Lanciano a man made deception?

I don't know. It's never been high on my radar.  It's a matter of faith and if the Church approves veneration of it, that's good enough for me

It should be pointed out that the Church has approved veneration of JPII himself...
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(05-23-2011, 10:13 PM)Norbert Wrote: It should be pointed out that the Church has approved veneration of JPII himself...

We don't have to like it.  But we have to understand and respect the power allowing it.  And we can pray for a suppression of the cult by the properly appointed authority or anything else on the list (suppression of the charismatic movement, communion in the hand, the Novus Ordo and all post-conciliar sacramental revisions, the Luminous Mysteries. etc. ) 

JPII was such a damaging agent to the Church, no matter what his personal sanctity, it's possible that Fr. Amorth is being decieved by the very demons he's trying to exorcise.  I wouldn't choose JPII, I would pick St. Pius X or St. Gregory or St. Michael the Archangel but I'm not the exorcist. 

On the other hand, it could be that God has used JPII's flaws in an essential ingredient for the restoration of the Church and the demon could know that.  Again, it's the exorcist's call.
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