Another EENS, please be patient...
I know, but it seems in all of these conversations the opposition gets fixated on baptism.  It is even more basic than that.  The naked savage has no Faith in Jesus.  He can't be saved, barring some miracle.  That is why there can't be anything called "implicit" desire.  I guess in some of the fundie prot sects that don't baptize you could talk about implicit desire (I don't, but it is at least somewhat reasonable), since they do have some Faith.  But the naked savages have no Faith. none.  zip.  zero.
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(05-28-2011, 07:32 PM)James02 Wrote: I know, but it seems in all of these conversations the opposition gets fixated on baptism.  It is even more basic than that.  The naked savage has no Faith in Jesus.  He can't be saved, barring some miracle.  That is why there can't be anything called "implicit" desire.  I guess in some of the fundie prot sects that don't baptize you could talk about implicit desire (I don't, but it is at least somewhat reasonable), since they do have some Faith.  But the naked savages have no Faith. none.  zip.  zero.

You said the key word: "... miracle..."  I keep telling you: "God can do whatever He wills."
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I tell you wulfrano, God can only will what is in accordance with his nature.

Is it in accordance with his nature to short-circuit his requirements as spoken by his own lips? Is it in his nature to contradict himself when he said NO MAN comes to the father but BY HIM? Or when he said unless a man is born of water and spirit he CANNOT see the kingdom of heaven?

God cannot simply will ANY-old-thing. Only that which is consistent with his being. Inconsistencies like BOD are opposed by me because they are inconsistent with the nature of God. God wills to save man...on his terms. Otherwise, why would he establish any terms if he could just flick the requirements on and off like a switch?
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Quote:But the naked savages have no Faith. none.  zip.  zero.

Faith is an infused virtue present with sanctifying grace.  If the naked savage is in the state of grace, he has the implicit habit of faith, just like a baptized baby.  
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The Creed says "Catholic Faith", not "habit" of faith.

For the baby, the faith of the parents suffices.  The savages don't have that even.  And for those above the age of reason, you must have Faith, or baptism is invalid.
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(05-28-2011, 09:33 PM)James02 Wrote: For the baby, the faith of the parents suffices.  The savages don't have that even.  And for those above the age of reason, you must have Faith, or baptism is invalid.

Does it depend on the faith of the parents?  Isn't Faith infused into everyone at baptism?

Council of Trent, Session 6:
"...the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified..."
"...together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity."

So it would take a miraculous baptism/infusion of faith, but it sounds possible.  I'm not saying it happens very often though.
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(05-28-2011, 08:44 PM)Gregory I Wrote: I tell you wulfrano, God can only will what is in accordance with his nature.

Is it in accordance with his nature to short-circuit his requirements as spoken by his own lips? Is it in his nature to contradict himself when he said NO MAN comes to the father but BY HIM? Or when he said unless a man is born of water and spirit he CANNOT see the kingdom of heaven?

God cannot simply will ANY-old-thing. Only that which is consistent with his being. Inconsistencies like BOD are opposed by me because they are inconsistent with the nature of God. God wills to save man...on his terms. Otherwise, why would he establish any terms if he could just flick the requirements on and off like a switch?

God is beyond human comprehension and beyond human limitation. He is Infinite and Transcendental.
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This is out of sync - it is based on my post of about 8:49 yesterday and Gregory's followup.

(05-28-2011, 01:26 AM)Gregory I Wrote: And I do not see how he can will something he refuses to do.

Evil  happens, right?  Does God will it? Of course not, God is not the cause of evil.  Does God NOT in some way will or desire the opposite good?  How can you say that God in no way desires the opposite good?   Substitute "salvation" and "damnation" for good and evil.  How can you say that God in no way desires salvation for each man?

St. Thomas' reasoning has been the center of Catholic philosophy since his time.  Scripture and tradition are at the center of his thinking,  but he uses REASON to help us understand them.  He teaches (and the Church does) that we know God by analogy, not directly, because He is infinite. Christ teaches us about God by parables based on human experience - including human emotion. such as DESIRING.

Don't forget St. Thomas (and common sense) understanding that there can be more than more then one sense of words. 

Antecedently God willed/desired Adam and Eve not to sin - or do you think God willed them to sin or didn't care?. But they DID sin.   Was God's will then overpowered? No, because in the other sense of the word "will" God's eternal will brought a far greater good out of their permitted sin "Felix Culpa". 

If there were not two senses of words, why would we pray "Thy Will Be Done", when God's will is always done?

None of this denies that some are elect and some are reprobate. It just means that "antecedently" God wills/wishes/desires each man to be saved.  You can't get around multiple senses of words, even if it makes things simpler for you.
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(05-28-2011, 09:54 PM)Pheo Wrote:
(05-28-2011, 09:33 PM)James02 Wrote: For the baby, the faith of the parents suffices.  The savages don't have that even.  And for those above the age of reason, you must have Faith, or baptism is invalid.

Does it depend on the faith of the parents?  Isn't Faith infused into everyone at baptism?

Council of Trent, Session 6:
"...the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified..."
"...together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity."

So it would take a miraculous baptism/infusion of faith, but it sounds possible.  I'm not saying it happens very often though.


Indeed.  A miraculous baptism/infusion of faith is not only possible... its a reality.
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(05-28-2011, 11:06 PM)wulfrano Wrote: Indeed.  A miraculous baptism/infusion of faith is not only possible... its a reality.

You had a divine revelation we're not aware of?
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