Another EENS, please be patient...
(06-04-2011, 07:56 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.

Doce, I don't believe it pitting Pope against Pope (well maybe these later Popes). So we MAY have a contradiction.  Here is what is at issue.  A Catholic could look at the naked savages and conclude they are damned.  However, this is not so.  The Lord can work a miracle, like sending a preacher.

No where does Pope Pius IX say that these people are saved without Faith or Baptism.  It says they are able to attain eternal life.  So we can conclude the Holy Spirit kept it vague to avoid a contradiction.  They can attain eternal life because God can (and has) send a preacher.
I think I agree with you at least in part here.  St. Thomas too says that explicit faith in Christ is needed and that angels, missionaries, or some internal enlightenment could bring the needed knowledge.

St. Thomas and the Council of  Trent and those many popes and saints and theologians who speak of it still believe in Baptism of Desire and do not come out and say "oops, I was wrong, I taught dangerous false doctrine, I want to take it back".  One point here is that they certainly believe in baptism of desire for a catechumen who is on his way to be baptized or vows to do it soon.  I know that some believe in this kind of baptism off desire, but nothing further.  This view is far more consistent with what the Church teaches than saying not even God can baptize without water.

But based on what Pope Pius IX says and what St. Thomas Aquinas says,  a man who is good in GOD's eyes will not go to hell.  Angels or preachers will come to him infallibly as needed.  I think it would NOT have to be visible (preachers).  Saying a man is good in GOD'S eyes (before he dies) implies that God will send knowledge as needed. Pope Pius IX is right.

Discussing more about the need for water (man's need and God's need!)  is a further thing 
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(06-04-2011, 09:33 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(06-04-2011, 07:56 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.

Doce, I don't believe it pitting Pope against Pope (well maybe these later Popes). So we MAY have a contradiction.  Here is what is at issue.  A Catholic could look at the naked savages and conclude they are damned.  However, this is not so.  The Lord can work a miracle, like sending a preacher.

No where does Pope Pius IX say that these people are saved without Faith or Baptism.  It says they are able to attain eternal life.  So we can conclude the Holy Spirit kept it vague to avoid a contradiction.  They can attain eternal life because God can (and has) send a preacher.
I think I agree with you at least in part here.  St. Thomas too says that explicit faith in Christ is needed and that angels, missionaries, or some internal enlightenment could bring the needed knowledge.

St. Thomas and the Council of  Trent and those many popes and saints and theologians who speak of it still believe in Baptism of Desire and do not come out and say "oops, I was wrong, I taught dangerous false doctrine, I want to take it back".  One point here is that they certainly believe in baptism of desire for a catechumen who is on his way to be baptized or vows to do it soon.  I know that some believe in this kind of baptism off desire, but nothing further.  This view is far more consistent with what the Church teaches than saying not even God can baptize without water.

But based on what Pope Pius IX says and what St. Thomas Aquinas says,  a man who is good in GOD's eyes will not go to hell.  Angels or preachers will come to him infallibly as needed.  I think it would NOT have to be visible (preachers).  Saying a man is good in GOD'S eyes (before he dies) implies that God will send knowledge as needed. Pope Pius IX is right.

Discussing more about the need for water (man's need and God's need!)  is a further thing 


This.
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A man cannot be good in God's eyes unless he is born again.

He cannot be born again withot baptism.

Can you be justified without being born again?
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(06-06-2011, 02:10 AM)Gregory I Wrote: A man cannot be good in God's eyes unless he is born again.

He cannot be born again withot baptism.

Can you be justified without being born again?

The Lord told the jews that God could make of stones children of Abraham.
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In response to a post 3 days ago:

(06-03-2011, 09:27 AM)Stubborn Wrote: As far as BOD goes, best to keep it simple........in the Holy Sacrifice, we pray in the Credo - Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum -  I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

But simplest of all is Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

I mean really - the whole "3 baptisms" thing makes no sense whatsoever in light of just the above two simple truths.

I choke on the idea that baptism of desire "makes no sense whatsoever" when it has been held by the greatest of saints and theologians.  How can anyone seriously think that they "just forgot" the Catholic truths that there is "one baptism", that baptism is by water, and that there is no salvation outside the Church?

There is just one God, and some have held that there is no Trinity.  God IS one and this is a simple truth, and God is simple, and some say that this is it, it is absurd and complicating things to go further.  Yet God is One God in Three persons.

The Blessed Trinity of course is the deepest mystery.  The three-ness of baptism is not a mystery like that.  But  the principle is similar.  Just because something is ONE does not mean that there can be NO sense in which it is three.

Baptism of desire and of blood are secondary baptisms because they are the desire for the primary and central baptism by water.  Not the desire YOU or I understand, but the desire that God alone knows.

Baptism of desire is an exception, a substitute God provides under exceptional circumstances.  As an exception it is not always mentioned everywhere baptism of water is mentioned - e.g. in the Creed.

Denying baptism of desire is denying one manifestation of God's mercy.  It is also denying God's justice - He does not condemn a man to eternal torment who has no original sin, and who dies in the state of sanctifying grace. It is by God's unfailing goodness and justice - not by a binding power over Him - that He does good to those who are good, and gives punishment only to those who are evil. 
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(06-06-2011, 04:26 PM)Doce Me Wrote: In response to a post 3 days ago:

(06-03-2011, 09:27 AM)Stubborn Wrote: As far as BOD goes, best to keep it simple........in the Holy Sacrifice, we pray in the Credo - Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum -  I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

But simplest of all is Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

I mean really - the whole "3 baptisms" thing makes no sense whatsoever in light of just the above two simple truths.

I choke on the idea that baptism of desire "makes no sense whatsoever" when it has been held by the greatest of saints and theologians.  How can anyone seriously think that they "just forgot" the Catholic truths that there is "one baptism", that baptism is by water, and that there is no salvation outside the Church?

There is just one God, and some have held that there is no Trinity.  God IS one and this is a simple truth, and God is simple, and some say that this is it, it is absurd and complicating things to go further.  Yet God is One God in Three persons.

The Blessed Trinity of course is the deepest mystery.  The three-ness of baptism is not a mystery like that.  But  the principle is similar.  Just because something is ONE does not mean that there can be NO sense in which it is three.

Baptism of desire and of blood are secondary baptisms because they are the desire for the primary and central baptism by water.  Not the desire YOU or I understand, but the desire that God alone knows.

Baptism of desire is an exception, a substitute God provides under exceptional circumstances.  As an exception it is not always mentioned everywhere baptism of water is mentioned - e.g. in the Creed.

Denying baptism of desire is denying one manifestation of God's mercy.  It is also denying God's justice - He does not condemn a man to eternal torment who has no original sin, and who dies in the state of sanctifying grace. It is by God's unfailing goodness and justice - not by a binding power over Him - that He does good to those who are good, and gives punishment only to those who are evil. 



THis.
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(06-06-2011, 04:26 PM)Doce Me Wrote: Baptism of desire is an exception, a substitute God provides under exceptional circumstances.  As an exception it is not always mentioned everywhere baptism of water is mentioned - e.g. in the Creed.

Question #1) Please describe what an "exceptional circumstance" is to God.

Question #2) Also I am asking for you to describe any event whatsoever that God has not foreseen from all eternity.

Folks who adhere to BOD seem to think that there can actually be such a thing as an unforeseen event, circumstance or accident with God - as though He either makes an "oops!" or He would unjustly snatch a sincere person from this earth before that person can get baptized. What is undeniable is that those in the BOD camp make human reason prevail over faith, and the human laws of probability / possibility over the Providence of God.

I agree with Fr. Feeney when he says that "there is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the sceptics. The clear truths of salvation, I am preaching to you."

BOD, IMO, forgets, denies or perverts Divine Providence all together. The undeniable realty is, that it is no more difficult for God to supply water and a minister than it is for Him to change His law and allow one to slip into salvation via a "good intention". (Whatever happened to "the road to hell is paved with good intentions?) Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they?


(06-06-2011, 04:26 PM)Doce Me Wrote: Denying baptism of desire is denying one manifestation of God's mercy.  It is also denying God's justice - He does not condemn a man to eternal torment who has no original sin, and who dies in the state of sanctifying grace. It is by God's unfailing goodness and justice - not by a binding power over Him - that He does good to those who are good, and gives punishment only to those who are evil. 

Actually, by denying bod, one supports the dogma on baptism which has been defined infallibly numerous times. 
God is not bound by His own laws and I don't think that is in question whatsoever, it is we who are bound by His laws - when He said "water", we'd be foolish to think He would deny anyone water who was truly in need of it - regardless of circumstance that we perceive to be "exceptional".

IMO what absolutely and positively would prove to be an exceptional circumstance, would be for anyone who has never even had any of the Sacraments to actually make a perfect act of love or contrition. Should such an exceptional event occur, there is no way for anyone to know if the act was perfect..........yet BOD folks judge - not only that the act to be perfect, but also in their false usurpation of the presumption of Divine justice, they also grant salvation based on this act which they assume is certainly perfect, regardless of the fact that they could in no way know if it was perfect.

The fact that the Church requires every mortal sin committed to be confessed, whether one is perfectly sorry for it or not, shows the Church has a maternal suspicion of this perfect act of love of God obtaining forgiveness apart from the Sacrament of forgiveness instituted by Christ.
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(06-07-2011, 07:34 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(06-06-2011, 04:26 PM)Doce Me Wrote: Baptism of desire is an exception, a substitute God provides under exceptional circumstances.  As an exception it is not always mentioned everywhere baptism of water is mentioned - e.g. in the Creed.

Question #1) Please describe what an "exceptional circumstance" is to God.

Question #2) Also I am asking for you to describe any event whatsoever that God has not foreseen from all eternity.

Folks who adhere to BOD seem to think that there can actually be such a thing as an unforeseen event, circumstance or accident with God - as though He either makes an "oops!" or He would unjustly snatch a sincere person from this earth before that person can get baptized. What is undeniable is that those in the BOD camp make human reason prevail over faith, and the human laws of probability / possibility over the Providence of God.

I agree with Fr. Feeney when he says that "there is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the sceptics. The clear truths of salvation, I am preaching to you."

BOD, IMO, forgets, denies or perverts Divine Providence all together. The undeniable realty is, that it is no more difficult for God to supply water and a minister than it is for Him to change His law and allow one to slip into salvation via a "good intention". (Whatever happened to "the road to hell is paved with good intentions?) Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they?


(06-06-2011, 04:26 PM)Doce Me Wrote: Denying baptism of desire is denying one manifestation of God's mercy.  It is also denying God's justice - He does not condemn a man to eternal torment who has no original sin, and who dies in the state of sanctifying grace. It is by God's unfailing goodness and justice - not by a binding power over Him - that He does good to those who are good, and gives punishment only to those who are evil. 

Actually, by denying bod, one supports the dogma on baptism which has been defined infallibly numerous times. 
God is not bound by His own laws and I don't think that is in question whatsoever, it is we who are bound by His laws - when He said "water", we'd be foolish to think He would deny anyone water who was truly in need of it - regardless of circumstance that we perceive to be "exceptional".

IMO what absolutely and positively would prove to be an exceptional circumstance, would be for anyone who has never even had any of the Sacraments to actually make a perfect act of love or contrition. Should such an exceptional event occur, there is no way for anyone to know if the act was perfect..........yet BOD folks judge - not only that the act to be perfect, but also in their false usurpation of the presumption of Divine justice, they also grant salvation based on this act which they assume is certainly perfect, regardless of the fact that they could in no way know if it was perfect.

The fact that the Church requires every mortal sin committed to be confessed, whether one is perfectly sorry for it or not, shows the Church has a maternal suspicion of this perfect act of love of God obtaining forgiveness apart from the Sacrament of forgiveness instituted by Christ.


There are so many innocent people who suffer beyond description, even more so than the most hardened sinners and worst criminals who in general lead a grand life.  I have seen them with my own eyes: innocent young men and women and children  who are blind or deaf or dumb or crippled or limbless, or  with leukemia or with Downs or sawed-off... not to mention millions of innocent aborted babies every year.  I cannot imagine the Mercy of Almighty God not doing anything about it.
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THere are none innocent. We do not deserve to be saved. God has chosen to give his grace to some, but he has not chosen to save all. Not all will be saved. As Pope Gregory I said: "Even the infant of a single day is not pure in his sight."

We cannot judge our justice on our own terms, but on God's: Unless a man be born of water and the spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven. After Christ established the Church and confirmed it on Pentecost, Baptism is essential for any to be saved.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. THere is no other way to partake of Christ's death than through sacramental water baptism, as Paul says in ROmans 6. "But if we have been conformed to the image of his death, we will share in his ressurection."

Infants and small children are cute. And it is sad when they are sick or hurt. And they COMPARATIVELY more innocent than we are: But don't deceive yourself, they are not wholly innocent. All whos erve sin are slaves to sin, and every infant from the moment of conception is sold in slavery to sin. I emphasize this darkness so you can understand the necessity of baptism. There is no other way to be saved than to be washed with the laver of regeneration.

Please show it to me in the Ordinary teaching of the magisterium, in her magisterial documents, and in the solemn magistgerium, acts of ecumenical councils and papal decrees that are considered infallible; decrees like: "Outside the church absolutely none are saved." -Pope Innocent III.
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(06-08-2011, 06:56 PM)Gregory I Wrote: THere are none innocent. We do not deserve to be saved. God has chosen to give his grace to some, but he has not chosen to save all. Not all will be saved. As Pope Gregory I said: "Even the infant of a single day is not pure in his sight."

We cannot judge our justice on our own terms, but on God's: Unless a man be born of water and the spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven. After Christ established the Church and confirmed it on Pentecost, Baptism is essential for any to be saved.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. THere is no other way to partake of Christ's death than through sacramental water baptism, as Paul says in ROmans 6. "But if we have been conformed to the image of his death, we will share in his ressurection."

Infants and small children are cute. And it is sad when they are sick or hurt. And they COMPARATIVELY more innocent than we are: But don't deceive yourself, they are not wholly innocent. All whos erve sin are slaves to sin, and every infant from the moment of conception is sold in slavery to sin. I emphasize this darkness so you can understand the necessity of baptism. There is no other way to be saved than to be washed with the laver of regeneration.


I'm talking about willful knowledgable
Please show it to me in the Ordinary teaching of the magisterium, in her magisterial documents, and in the solemn magistgerium, acts of ecumenical councils and papal decrees that are considered infallible; decrees like: "Outside the church absolutely none are saved." -Pope Innocent III.

I am not talking about Original Sin.  I'm talking about willful knowledgeable personal mortal sin.  Many don't have it.  Many die without it. I can't conceive them burning with Satan.  I am also talking about those good-for-nothing modern clerics who are too lazy or too scared to go and baptize heathens, pagans, jews or moslems.  Will the latter go to hell just because Church missionaries are too lazy or too scared to approach them? 
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