Why does everyone blame God when bad things happen?
#51
(06-18-2011, 01:02 AM)Lydia Grace Wrote: How can a child sin who does not yet have reason?

THey are born sinful and justly condemned. AS Pope St. Gregory the Great says: "Even the infant of a single day is not pure in his sight."

Original sin is a loss of the holiness and justice and righteousness Adam had AND it is a participation in the guilt of ADam's sin, the consequences of which are eternally being deprived of the vision of God.
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#52
(06-18-2011, 01:21 AM)Gregory I Wrote:
(06-18-2011, 01:02 AM)Lydia Grace Wrote: How can a child sin who does not yet have reason?

THey are born sinful and justly condemned. AS Pope St. Gregory the Great says: "Even the infant of a single day is not pure in his sight."

Original sin is a loss of the holiness and justice and righteousness Adam had AND it is a participation in the guilt of ADam's sin, the consequences of which are eternally being deprived of the vision of God.

So what about after baptism?

Yes,everyone is born with original sin, of course, but I agree with wulfrano about them going to limbo instead of hell if they have not been baptized.
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#53
Well, obviously after baptism they are cleansed of origina sin and made just. THey are then outfitted for heaven.

Limbo is a part of hell. The exact terminology that is irreformable is this: "All those who die in mortal sin, or in original sin alone, descend to hell where they are punished, but with different punishments."

THat's binding.
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#54
(06-18-2011, 02:56 AM)Gregory I Wrote: Well, obviously after baptism they are cleansed of origina sin and made just. THey are then outfitted for heaven.

Limbo is a part of hell. The exact terminology that is irreformable is this: "All those who die in mortal sin, or in original sin alone, descend to hell where they are punished, but with different punishments."

THat's binding.

Hell in Limbo is simply the deprivation of the Sight of God.  But no burning flames are involved nor suffering of any kind.
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#55
That cannot be said FOR SURE, because we do not know how hell is actually organized. We know that those who go to hell with the stain of original sin alone are:

A. Really in Hell.
i. Hell is both the pain of sense, and the pain of loss.
ii. It is not unreasonable to believe infants only experience the pain of loss but...
B. Punished.
i. For a punishment to be real, it must be felt.
ii. Infants who are not baptized must undergo some form of at least passive punishment.

I see no reason to hope for rainbows and unicorns. Just not fire.
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#56
(06-18-2011, 04:10 AM)Gregory I Wrote: That cannot be said FOR SURE, because we do not know how hell is actually organized. We know that those who go to hell with the stain of original sin alone are:

A. Really in Hell.
i. Hell is both the pain of sense, and the pain of loss.
ii. It is not unreasonable to believe infants only experience the pain of loss but...
B. Punished.
i. For a punishment to be real, it must be felt.
ii. Infants who are not baptized must undergo some form of at least passive punishment.

I see no reason to hope for rainbows and unicorns. Just not fire.

Well... I'll compromise with you.  Whatever pain may be involved in Limbo it could simply be a nostalgic longing for what the Elect perceive which is the vision of God.
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#57
I think it's the sense of knowing that your sinfulness has separated you from God. Remember, they are not BABIES in hell, they are discarnate human souls, so don't get choked up by the idea of cute cuddly babies suffering third-degree burns.

It's more like an immature human soul that is stained with the guilt of contracted sin, making it thus unworthy of heaven, and fit only for hell. Sitting in the darkness knowing you will never see the light. But on the bright side, you are not being tormented by flame...but the emptiness will burn more than any spiritual fire.
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#58
(06-18-2011, 04:29 AM)Gregory I Wrote: I think it's the sense of knowing that your sinfulness has separated you from God. Remember, they are not BABIES in hell, they are discarnate human souls, so don't get choked up by the idea of cute cuddly babies suffering third-degree burns.

It's more like an immature human soul that is stained with the guilt of contracted sin, making it thus unworthy of heaven, and fit only for hell. Sitting in the darkness knowing you will never see the light. But on the bright side, you are not being tormented by flame...but the emptiness will burn more than any spiritual fire.

I think you are very cruel.  You forget the Resurrection.  Those babies will have their bodies and, like I say, will walk in a new Garden Of Eden at the evening zephir with the Lord at their side.
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#59
(06-18-2011, 04:10 AM)Gregory I Wrote: That cannot be said FOR SURE, because we do not know how hell is actually organized. We know that those who go to hell with the stain of original sin alone are:

A. Really in Hell.
i. Hell is both the pain of sense, and the pain of loss.
ii. It is not unreasonable to believe infants only experience the pain of loss but...
B. Punished.
i. For a punishment to be real, it must be felt.
ii. Infants who are not baptized must undergo some form of at least passive punishment.

I see no reason to hope for rainbows and unicorns. Just not fire.

Aquinas teaches that:

(A) The only punishment unbaptized infants endure is the deprivation of the Beatific Vision
(B) Punishment is proportionate to fault. Sensible pain is due to actual sins and, having died before having committed any actual sin, these infants do not deserve that suffering.

Supplement to the Summa - Q70: Wrote:I answer that, Punishment should be proportionate to Fault, according to the saying of Isaias xxvii.8, In measure against measure, when it shall be cast off, thou shalt judge it.  Now, the defect transmitted to us through our origin and, having the character of a sin, does not result from the withdrawal or corruption of a good consequent upon human nature by virtue of its principles but from the withdrawal or corruption of something that had been super-added to nature.  Nor does this sin belong to this particular man, except insofar as he has such a nature, that is deprived of this good which, in the ordinary course of things, he would have had and would have been able to keep.  Wherefore, no further punishment is due to him besides the privation of that end to which the gift withdrawn destined him, which gift human nature is unable of itself to obtain.  Now, this is the divine vision and consequently the loss of this vision is the proper and only punishment of original sin after death: because, if any other sensible punishment were inflicted after death for original sin, a man would be punished out of proportion to his guilt, for sensible punishment is inflicted for that which is proper to the person, since a man undergoes sensible punishment insofar as he suffers in his person.  Hence, as his guilt did not result from an action of his own, even so, neither should he be punished by suffering himself but only by losing that which his nature was unable to obtain.  On the other hand, those who are under sentence for original sin will suffer no loss whatever in other kinds of perfection and goodness which are consequent upon human nature by virtue of its principles.

© The privation of the Beatific Vision is not a source of pain for unbaptized infants. These souls have no knowledge of the supernatural destiny they have missed, this knowledge being itself supernatural, and as such not included in what is naturally due to the separated soul. ("no wise man grieves for being unable to fly like a bird.")
(D)Unbaptized infants enjoy natural happiness.

Supplement to the Summa - Q71: Wrote:On the contrary,if baptised children have interior sorrow after death, they will grieve either for their sin or for their punishment.  If for their sin, since they cannot be further cleansed from that sin, their sorrow will lead them to despair.  Now sorrow of this kind in the damned is the worm of conscience.  Therefore these children will have the worm of conscience and consequently, theirs would not be the mildest punishment, as Augustine says it is.  If, on the other hand, they grieve for their punishment, it follows, since their punishment is justly inflicted by God, that their will opposes itself to divine justice and thus would be actually inordinate, which is not to be granted.  Therefore they will feel no sorrow.

Further, right reason does not allow one to be disturbed on account of what one was unable to avoid; hence Seneca proves (Ep. 1xxxv., and De Ira ii. 6) that a wise man is not disturbed.  Now in these children, there is right reason deflected by no actual sin.  Therefore they will not be disturbed for that they undergo this punishment which they could nowise avoid.

...

Accordingly, it must be observed that if one is guided by right reason, one does not grieve through being deprived of what is beyond one’s power to obtain but only through lack of that which, in some way, one is capable of obtaining.  Thus, no wise man grieves for being unable to fly like a bird or for that he is not a king or an emperor, since these things are not due to him; whereas he would grieve if he lacked that to which he had some kind of claim.  I say, then, that every man who has the use of free-will is adapted to obtain eternal life, because he can prepare himself for grace whereby to merit eternal life; so that if he fail in this, his grief will be very great, since he has lost what he was able to possess.  But children were never adapted to possess eternal life, since neither was this due to them by virtue of their natural principles, for it surpasses the entire faculty of nature, nor could they perform acts of their own whereby to obtain so great a good.  Hence they will nowise grieve for being deprived of the divine vision; nay, rather will they rejoice for that they will have a large share of God’s goodness and their own natural perfections.  Nor can it be said that they were adapted to obtain eternal life, not indeed by their own action but by the actions of others around them, since they could be baptised by others, like other children of the same condition who have been baptised and obtained eternal life: for this is of superabundant grace that one should be rewarded without any act of one’s own.  Wherefore the lack of such a grace will not cause sorrow in children who die without Baptism, any more than the lack of many graces accorded to others of the same condition makes a wise man to grieve.

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#60
(06-18-2011, 04:41 AM)wulfrano Wrote: I think you are very cruel.  You forget the Resurrection.  Those babies will have their bodies and, like I say, will walk in a new Garden Of Eden at the evening zephir with the Lord at their side.

After the final resurrection, unbaptised babies "will not walk in a new Garden Of Eden at the evening zephir with the Lord at their side" but will abide in Hell.

"Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

Period.
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