Why does everyone blame God when bad things happen?
#61
(06-18-2011, 06:58 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-18-2011, 04:41 AM)wulfrano Wrote: I think you are very cruel.  You forget the Resurrection.  Those babies will have their bodies and, like I say, will walk in a new Garden Of Eden at the evening zephir with the Lord at their side.

After the final resurrection, unbaptised babies "will not walk in a new Garden Of Eden at the evening zephir with the Lord at their side" but will abide in Hell.

"Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

Period.

As far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong, Wulfrano), Wulfrano is perhaps saying that unbaptized infants will have the renovated Earth (to occur on the Day of Judgment) as their happy abode. This is a concept that was advocated by the eminent 16th century scholastic theologian, Francisco Suarez.
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#62
(06-18-2011, 07:17 AM)Joshua Wrote:
(06-18-2011, 06:58 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-18-2011, 04:41 AM)wulfrano Wrote: I think you are very cruel.  You forget the Resurrection.  Those babies will have their bodies and, like I say, will walk in a new Garden Of Eden at the evening zephir with the Lord at their side.

After the final resurrection, unbaptised babies "will not walk in a new Garden Of Eden at the evening zephir with the Lord at their side" but will abide in Hell.

"Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

Period.

As far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong, Wulfrano), Wulfrano is perhaps saying that unbaptized infants will have the renovated Earth (to occur on the Day of Judgment) as their happy abode. This is a concept that was advocated by the eminent 16th century scholastic theologian, Francisco Suarez.

It seems to me that's just theological speculation, at best.
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#63
Suarez was no friend to Augustinians.

Wulfrano, there is nothing cruel about it. THey do not DESERVE heaven. GOd is not obliged to give it to them. And they have no known means of overcoming their state, which is a permanent one: Hell. I am not about to soothe the fates of unbaptized infants in the interest of feeling good if it results in compromising the revealed word of God:

Which is:

"All those who die...in original sin ALONE descend to hell, where they are punished, but differently than those who die in mortal sin. It was the heretical Pelagians and Semi Pelagians that maintained that unbaptized infants have some kind of "eternal life" and that they are simply baptiZed to be made members of the church, but not to take away sin.

THe Council of Trent is FIRMLY anti-Pelagian, as was st. Augustine. Here is what the council said:

Session 5, Paragraph 4

4. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,--whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is a canon about infants, for infants, and concerning infants. And in this context, the council fathers quote the words of Christ. They therefore apply the words of Christ to infants: None are saved who are not baptized.

DO not judge with human justice, but with the justice of God.

cruel...lol. It's not like I put them there. Yes, I have three kids, I just had a baby. He is not yet baptized, and I acknowledge his need for it. If he should die before receiving baptism, then God's will be done. I accept as his fate whatever God wils, because he only wills what is best.
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#64
(06-18-2011, 10:46 AM)Gregory I Wrote: Yes, I have three kids, I just had a baby. He is not yet baptized, and I acknowledge his need for it. If he should die before receiving baptism, then God's will be done. I accept as his fate whatever God wils, because he only wills what is best.

Just make sure you baptise him, ASAP.

You never know what tomorrow brings.
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#65
Yeah, undue delay is a sin. I am not gonna do that. Good looking out. :)
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#66
It's not right, but blaming God is easy because He has power over all life and death. That's actually a more pious sentiment than just being an atheist.

A related question: why does everyone thank God when something good happens? And by "good", I mean like your favorite team winning the Super Bowl, winning a bet on a horse race, or scoring a second date.
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#67
(06-18-2011, 11:55 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: A related question: why does everyone thank God when something good happens? And by "good", I mean like your favorite team winning the Super Bowl, winning a bet on a horse race, or scoring a second date.

1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 Wrote:"Always rejoice. Pray without ceasing. In all things give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you all."
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#68
Vetus: I'll buy that. Thanks.
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#69
(06-18-2011, 12:21 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: Vetus: I'll buy that. Thanks.

The point is to give thanks to God in all things, whether good or bad, because that way we conform to His will, fully recognising His absolute sovereignty over creation.

Even in trivial things that do not pertain to the spirit or to our salvation, like passing an exam, our favourite team winning a game, eating a good meal, etc., we should always give thanks to God because none of it would happen if He didn't will it to happen. God oversees everything. "Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? Yea, the very hairs of your head are all numbered." (Luke 12:6-7)

Contrariwise, when things go bad, give thanks to Him as well because nothing escapes His will.
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#70
(06-18-2011, 10:46 AM)Gregory I Wrote: Suarez was no friend to Augustinians.

... which a Catholic is free to be.

Regardless, I adhere to the Thomistic understanding of the Limbo of the Infants which states:

(A) The only punishment unbaptized infants endure is the deprivation of the Beatific Vision
(B) Punishment is proportionate to fault. Sensible pain is due to actual sins and, having died before having committed any actual sin, these infants do not deserve that suffering.
© The privation of the Beatific Vision is not a source of pain for unbaptized infants. These souls have no knowledge of the supernatural destiny they have missed, this knowledge being itself supernatural, and as such not included in what is naturally due to the separated soul. ("no wise man grieves for being unable to fly like a bird.")
(D) Unbaptized infants enjoy natural happiness.

Read post #58 for citations.
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