The Fall of Constantinople
#1
I recently thought to myself that perhaps the Fall of Constantinople was a chastisement by God upon Byzantium. Perhaps God was punishing the Byzantines for their heresy and schism, particularly in rejecting the Union of Florence. In fact, perhaps the fall of the Byzantine Empire in general was God's punishment for the Byzantine Church's schism from the Christ's Church. Any thoughts about this?
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#2
(08-14-2011, 06:19 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: I recently thought to myself that perhaps the Fall of Constantinople was a chastisement by God upon Byzantium. Perhaps God was punishing the Byzantines for their heresy and schism, particularly in rejecting the Union of Florence. In fact, perhaps the fall of the Byzantine Empire in general was God's punishment for the Byzantine Church's schism from the Christ's Church. Any thoughts about this?

Well, the last Divine Liturgy (never finished) in the Great Church was a union Liturgy in full union with Rome.
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#3
(08-14-2011, 06:19 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: I recently thought to myself that perhaps the Fall of Constantinople was a chastisement by God upon Byzantium. Perhaps God was punishing the Byzantines for their heresy and schism, particularly in rejecting the Union of Florence. In fact, perhaps the fall of the Byzantine Empire in general was God's punishment for the Byzantine Church's schism from the Christ's Church. Any thoughts about this?

Dimond Brothers had the same conclusion you did. They made a video on it.
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#4
(08-14-2011, 06:41 PM)st.dominic_savio Wrote:
(08-14-2011, 06:19 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: I recently thought to myself that perhaps the Fall of Constantinople was a chastisement by God upon Byzantium. Perhaps God was punishing the Byzantines for their heresy and schism, particularly in rejecting the Union of Florence. In fact, perhaps the fall of the Byzantine Empire in general was God's punishment for the Byzantine Church's schism from the Christ's Church. Any thoughts about this?

Dimond Brothers had the same conclusion you did. They made a video on it.

If the Diamond Brothers agree with me, that means I should probably reconsider.

:laughing:
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#5
(08-14-2011, 06:43 PM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(08-14-2011, 06:41 PM)st.dominic_savio Wrote:
(08-14-2011, 06:19 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: I recently thought to myself that perhaps the Fall of Constantinople was a chastisement by God upon Byzantium. Perhaps God was punishing the Byzantines for their heresy and schism, particularly in rejecting the Union of Florence. In fact, perhaps the fall of the Byzantine Empire in general was God's punishment for the Byzantine Church's schism from the Christ's Church. Any thoughts about this?

Dimond Brothers had the same conclusion you did. They made a video on it.

If the Diamond Brothers agree with me, that means I should probably reconsider.

:laughing:

Exactly! :laughing:
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#6
(08-14-2011, 06:41 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-14-2011, 06:19 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: I recently thought to myself that perhaps the Fall of Constantinople was a chastisement by God upon Byzantium. Perhaps God was punishing the Byzantines for their heresy and schism, particularly in rejecting the Union of Florence. In fact, perhaps the fall of the Byzantine Empire in general was God's punishment for the Byzantine Church's schism from the Christ's Church. Any thoughts about this?

Well, the last Divine Liturgy (never finished) in the Great Church was a union Liturgy in full union with Rome.

Really? Do you have any citation for that? Not necessarily questioning your claim, just wanting to find out more info.

I had been under the impression that the Union ended almost as soon as the Greek Bishops returned to the Byzantine Empire.
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#7
Wikipedia Wrote:The Council, transferred to Ferrara in 1438 and to Florence in 1439, had meanwhile successfully negotiated reunification with several Eastern Churches, reaching agreements on such matters as papal primacy, the insertion of the phrase "Filioque" to the Creed and purgatory, a novelty only recently a part of the Latin-speaking theological lexicon. The major issues on the table, predictably, were papal power, in the sense of direct and unaccountable rule over all the National Orthodox Churches (Serbian, Greek, Bulgrarian, Russian, Georgian, Armenian, etc.) in exchange for military assistance against the Ottoman Turks. The Greek party, under strong pressure from the Byzantine Emperor, accepted, solely for political reasons, the demands of the papal party. Only St. Mark of Ephesus rejected the union for the Greek party. The Russians, upon getting wind of this purely political theology, angrily rejected the union and tossed out any prelate who was even remotely sympathetic to it. Of course, Western military assistance to Byzantium never materialized, resulting in the fall of Constantinople in 1453.

Mark of Ephesus died before the Council even finished as well.

I don't think it would be farfetched to think that the collapse of Byzantium had to do with this.

It's sad to think that without Mark of Ephesus, the Church very well may have been re-united and Constantinople may have never become the Islamic stronghold it is today.
Wikipedia Wrote:Georgios Kourtesios Scholarios (Patriarch of Constantinople) entered the Pantokrator monastery in Constantinople under Constantine XI (1448–1453) and took, according to the invariable custom, a new name: Gennadius. Before the fall of the city he was already well known as a bitter opponent of the union. He and Eugenikos were the leaders of the anti-Latin party. In 1447, Mark of Ephesus on his deathbed praised Gennadius's irreconcilable attitude towards the Latins and the union (P.G., CLX, 529). It was to Gennadius that the angry people went after seeing the Uniate services in the great church of Hagia Sophia. It is said that he hid himself, but left a notice on the door of his cell: "O unhappy Romans, why have you forsaken the truth? Why do you not trust in God, instead of in the Italians? In losing your faith you will lose your city",

The exact opposite happened...
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#8
(08-14-2011, 06:44 PM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(08-14-2011, 06:41 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(08-14-2011, 06:19 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: I recently thought to myself that perhaps the Fall of Constantinople was a chastisement by God upon Byzantium. Perhaps God was punishing the Byzantines for their heresy and schism, particularly in rejecting the Union of Florence. In fact, perhaps the fall of the Byzantine Empire in general was God's punishment for the Byzantine Church's schism from the Christ's Church. Any thoughts about this?

Well, the last Divine Liturgy (never finished) in the Great Church was a union Liturgy in full union with Rome.

Really? Do you have any citation for that? Not necessarily questioning your claim, just wanting to find out more info.

I had been under the impression that the Union ended almost as soon as the Greek Bishops returned to the Byzantine Empire.

Read it years ago. I'll do some checking.
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#9
While it's true that not even the least hair falling from our heads escapes His notice, I wonder if it's prudent to impute too much to the Divine Plan.  I don't subscribe to the Deist "watchmaker" theory; but men's free will does drive history, and God does permit the evil that can result.

Perhaps the question is does God's acquiescence of human action equal his approval (in this case only, I mean, not that God approves of murder or rape), and should we construe that implied approval as His wrath?
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#10
(08-14-2011, 06:19 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: I recently thought to myself that perhaps the Fall of Constantinople was a chastisement by God upon Byzantium. Perhaps God was punishing the Byzantines for their heresy and schism, particularly in rejecting the Union of Florence. In fact, perhaps the fall of the Byzantine Empire in general was God's punishment for the Byzantine Church's schism from the Christ's Church. Any thoughts about this?

It was actually Mark of Ephesus and the Russians rejecting the union that caused the fall of Constantinople, the Greeks and the Byzantine Emperor accepted the union.  With agreement of the major issues on the table the Council of Florence would have exchanged military assistance against the Ottoman Turks.  So with Mark of Ephesus and the Russians rejecting the union Western military assistance to Byzantium never materialized, resulting in the fall of Constantinople in 1453.
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