Vatican, Lutherans Preparing Document on Reformation
#21
(08-31-2011, 08:01 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(08-31-2011, 07:54 PM)Laetare Wrote: This is exactly the sort of thing that shakes and weakens my young, neophyte faith. If the Church so easily swings upon the winds of modernism and liberalism, who is to say that it isn't just a man-made institution? This outward appearance of tolerance-at-all-costs and other pernicious nonsense only tells me that God is either not with this Church, or the Church is ignoring God. One or the other is a very bad sign...  :(

As you learn more about the history of the Church you will realize the Church has been in a constant state of crisis since the beginning. We're always dealing with some heresy, and as soon as we knock one down a new one appears.  However, despite the constant crisis of the Church the faith has remained pure and uncorrupted over 2,000 years. Christ promised Hell would never breach the gates of the church, but that comment also implied Hell would constantly be trying to breach those gates.  The fact that the church has dealt with so many crises, yet always emerged triumphant helps sustain my faith.  Someday we will lick modernism. Then we will have peace for about a year and then some new crisis will start. 

This

Read some Hilaire Belloc.  http://www.amazon.com/Great-Heresies-Hilaire-Belloc/dp/1463587198/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314836986&sr=1-12
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#22
(08-31-2011, 06:24 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
Article thats pissing me off more and more the more I read it Wrote:After visiting St. Mary's Cathedral, he will meet with representatives of the German Evangelical Church Council and then take part in an ecumenical celebration in the church of the Augustinians' convent in Erfurt.

wtf is this?

You guys haven't heard about this here yet? I remember hearing this a few months back.

St. Martin Luther would be happy to see this.
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#23
I am willing to welcome back the Lutherans with open arms. The Church needs to be reunited. I just pray that the Lutherans are the one making concessions, not us, and that we all move back toward tradition.  :pray:
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#24
(08-31-2011, 08:35 PM)Adam_Michael Wrote: I am willing to welcome back the Lutherans with open arms. The Church needs to be reunited. I just pray that the Lutherans are the one making concessions, not us, and that we all move back toward tradition.  :pray:

This, in part. The Church needs to be reunited, but currently the Lutherans are not part of the Church. I do share in prayer that the heresiarchys return to the fold.

If 'we' make concessions than 'we' are not the Church either.

:pray:
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#25
(08-31-2011, 06:51 PM)Roger the Shrubber Wrote: ::)

We can talk to them.  We can explain our teachings.  We can welcome them back.  But they were the ones who left.  They will have to be the ones to come back.  We can help them by offering them a hand, but we can't "meet in the middle."  In how we differ, they ere.  Placating them will get us and them nowhere.

This entire thing comes from giving a budget to "ecumenism" rather than apologetics and missionary work.  The ecumenism boys have to do something with their time.

Indeed. It is nothing but heaps of false charity--the charity of the world. True charity--the charity of God--did exactly as the Bride of Christ did (and would be expected to do): condemn Luther with the strongest excommunication possible; for from truth comes love, not the other way around as this "re-orientation" of the Church in a "new context of dialogue with other churches" would have us believe.
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#26
(08-31-2011, 08:01 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: As you learn more about the history of the Church you will realize the Church has been in a constant state of crisis since the beginning. We're always dealing with some heresy, and as soon as we knock one down a new one appears.  However, despite the constant crisis of the Church the faith has remained pure and uncorrupted over 2,000 years. Christ promised Hell would never breach the gates of the church, but that comment also implied Hell would constantly be trying to breach those gates.  The fact that the church has dealt with so many crises, yet always emerged triumphant helps sustain my faith.  Someday we will lick modernism. Then we will have peace for about a year and then some new crisis will start. 

Well put.
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#27
Doesn't anybody think it would be good to wait until we find out what this "joint declaration" actually says before we condemn it? Or is anything that Lutherans agree with wrong by definition?
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#28
(08-31-2011, 09:45 PM)NOtard Wrote: Doesn't anybody think it would be good to wait until we find out what this "joint declaration" actually says before we condemn it? Or is anything that Lutherans agree with wrong by definition?

That is fine.  My reaction was to a) some brainiac cardinal calling for a "mutual mea culpa" and b) the HOly Father attending an "ecumenical ceremony."
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#29
(08-31-2011, 09:45 PM)NOtard Wrote: Doesn't anybody think it would be good to wait until we find out what this "joint declaration" actually says before we condemn it? Or is anything that Lutherans agree with wrong by definition?

Agreed.
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#30
(08-31-2011, 09:45 PM)NOtard Wrote: Doesn't anybody think it would be good to wait until we find out what this "joint declaration" actually says before we condemn it? Or is anything that Lutherans agree with wrong by definition?

I suspect the joint declaration won't be as bad as we expect.  But, I still think there is a problem with many recent attempts as ecumenism.  A few years ago Bishop Fellay of the SSPX gave a really interesting talk on ecumenism. He stated the Vatican II document on ecumenism is correct that there are other truths in other religions, but complained that the document didn't label what had hitherto been labeled false religions as false religions. Because he stated even if a religion has 90% of the truth that isn't really good enough. So for example he said a student taking a test who answered "what is 2+2" with a "3" would not get very far in convincing his teacher that "3" is 3/4th of "4"!  

He then gave an interesting analogy to Assisi II. He said at Assisi II all the different religious groups there didn't actually pray together, but setup in different rooms and prayed separately. Thus, he compared Assisi II to an airport where various airplanes were docked at the terminal.  But, he said at this airport only one of the airplanes could fly, that of the Catholic Church.  Now this doesn't mean that the other groups didn't have airplanes. Indeed, he stated the Orthodox actually had a fully functional airplane capable of flight. Alas, Orthodoxy's plane lacked a pilot, the Pope, and thus would not get far.  The various Protetsant sects airplanes were even in worst shape as they had engine trouble as they lacked the full sacraments.  And, further down the line the Buddhist's airplane was only made of paper mâché.  

I suspect NOtard will find some irony in what Bishop Fellay said, but I think he's right in what he said. The church needs not to be shy about admitting it's the only religion that is going to get you anywhere.  The church has always acknowledged there are truths outside of the Church, but traditionally when it came to the truths found in other religions we used those truths to help convert people from those religions not to tell them their religion had a lot of truth in them.  I strongly support true ecumenicism like that which Pope Benedict has done with the Anglicans in setting up an Ordinariate for them.  But, unless this joint document is being made with a group of Lutherans that want to accept Papal Supremacy and Catholic doctrine I doubt there is little to look forward to.  
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