Vatican, Lutherans Preparing Document on Reformation
#31
The buddhist airplane was made of paper machete.

I will remember this.  Forever.

More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#32
This is the only "joint declaration" that the Lutherans and the Catholic hierarchy should be signing:

Quote:I, NN, have held and believed errors contrary to Catholic teaching. Now, enlightened by divine grace, I kneel before you, Reverend Father ...., having before my eyes and touching with my hand the holy Gospels. And with firm faith I believe and profess each and all the articles contained in the Apostles' Creed, that is: I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; He descended into hell, the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty, from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy Catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

I firmly admit and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and all the other constitutions and ordinances of the Church.

I admit the Sacred Scriptures in the sense which has been held and is still held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge the true sense and interpretation of Sacred Scripture, and I shall never accept or interpret them in a sense contrary to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

I profess that the sacraments of the New Law are truly and precisely seven in number, instituted for the salvation of mankind, though all are not necessary for each individual: baptism, confirmation, holy Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony. I profess that all confer grace, and that baptism, confirmation, and holy orders cannot be repeated without sacrilege. I also accept and admit the ritual of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all the aforementioned sacraments.

I accept and hold in each and every part all that has been defined and declared by the Sacred Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification. I profess that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, real, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; that in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is really, truly, and substantially present, and that there takes place in the Mass what the Church calls transubstantiation, which is the change of all the substance of bread into the body of Christ and of all substance of wine into His blood. I confess also that in receiving under either of these species one receives Jesus Christ whole and entire.

I firmly hold that Purgatory exists and that the souls detained there can be helped by the prayers of the faithful.

Likewise I hold that the saints, who reign with Jesus Christ, should be venerated and invoked, that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.

I firmly profess that the images of Jesus Christ and of the Mother of God, ever a Virgin, as well as of all the saints should be given due honor and veneration. I also affirm that Jesus Christ left to the Church the faculty to grant indulgences, and that their use is most salutary to the Christian people. I recognize the holy, Roman, Catholic, and apostolic Church as the mother and teacher of all the churches, and I promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Pontiff, successor of St. Peter, the prince of the apostles and vicar of Jesus Christ.

Moreover, without hesitation I accept and profess all that has been handed down, defined, and declared by the sacred canons and by the general councils, especially by the Sacred Council of Trent and by the Vatican General Council, and in special manner all that concerns the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. At the same time I condemn and reprove all that the Church has condemned and reproved. This same Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, I now freely profess and I truly adhere to it. With the help of God, I promise and swear to maintain and profess this faith entirely, inviolately, and with firm constancy until the last breath of life. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and publicly professed by all who depend on me and over whom I shall have charge.

So help me God and these holy Gospels
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#33
(08-31-2011, 10:21 PM)Aragon Wrote: This is the only "joint declaration" that the Lutherans and the Catholic hierarchy should be signing:

Quote:I, NN, have held and believed errors contrary to Catholic teaching. Now, enlightened by divine grace, I kneel before you, Reverend Father ...., having before my eyes and touching with my hand the holy Gospels. And with firm faith I believe and profess each and all the articles contained in the Apostles' Creed, that is: I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; He descended into hell, the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty, from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy Catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

I firmly admit and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and all the other constitutions and ordinances of the Church.

I admit the Sacred Scriptures in the sense which has been held and is still held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge the true sense and interpretation of Sacred Scripture, and I shall never accept or interpret them in a sense contrary to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

I profess that the sacraments of the New Law are truly and precisely seven in number, instituted for the salvation of mankind, though all are not necessary for each individual: baptism, confirmation, holy Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony. I profess that all confer grace, and that baptism, confirmation, and holy orders cannot be repeated without sacrilege. I also accept and admit the ritual of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all the aforementioned sacraments.

I accept and hold in each and every part all that has been defined and declared by the Sacred Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification. I profess that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, real, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; that in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is really, truly, and substantially present, and that there takes place in the Mass what the Church calls transubstantiation, which is the change of all the substance of bread into the body of Christ and of all substance of wine into His blood. I confess also that in receiving under either of these species one receives Jesus Christ whole and entire.

I firmly hold that Purgatory exists and that the souls detained there can be helped by the prayers of the faithful.

Likewise I hold that the saints, who reign with Jesus Christ, should be venerated and invoked, that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.

I firmly profess that the images of Jesus Christ and of the Mother of God, ever a Virgin, as well as of all the saints should be given due honor and veneration. I also affirm that Jesus Christ left to the Church the faculty to grant indulgences, and that their use is most salutary to the Christian people. I recognize the holy, Roman, Catholic, and apostolic Church as the mother and teacher of all the churches, and I promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Pontiff, successor of St. Peter, the prince of the apostles and vicar of Jesus Christ.

Moreover, without hesitation I accept and profess all that has been handed down, defined, and declared by the sacred canons and by the general councils, especially by the Sacred Council of Trent and by the Vatican General Council, and in special manner all that concerns the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. At the same time I condemn and reprove all that the Church has condemned and reproved. This same Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, I now freely profess and I truly adhere to it. With the help of God, I promise and swear to maintain and profess this faith entirely, inviolately, and with firm constancy until the last breath of life. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and publicly professed by all who depend on me and over whom I shall have charge.

So help me God and these holy Gospels

Did you have to recite that?
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#34
damn aragon, I misread what you wrote and thought this was actually what they were gonna sign.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#35
(08-31-2011, 10:27 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: damn aragon, I misread what you wrote and thought this was actually what they were gonna sign.

If only, lol!
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#36
(08-31-2011, 10:26 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Did you have to recite that?

Nope, I was baptized (for the first time, not conditionally). A guy who was received into the Church straight after my baptism had to recite it though, pretty cool.
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#37
The document itself will be a different matter to examine.  But the ecumenical gesture is something that won't sit well with the SSPX at a time when the Vatican is supposed to be working on ironing out doctrinal disagreements with them (ecumenism being one of the sensitive matters).

Here is a relevant quote from VII's Unitatis Redintegratio:
Quote:Catholics, in their ecumenical work, must assuredly be concerned for their separated brethren, praying for them, keeping them informed about the Church, making the first approaches toward them. But their primary duty is to make a careful and honest appraisal of whatever needs to be done or renewed in the Catholic household itself, in order that its life may bear witness more clearly and faithfully to the teachings and institutions which have come to it from Christ through the Apostles.

And like I said, I know Lutherans who get just as worked up about this stuff because they believe they have the truth and it was necessary to depart from erring Rome.
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#38
(08-31-2011, 10:16 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(08-31-2011, 09:45 PM)NOtard Wrote: Doesn't anybody think it would be good to wait until we find out what this "joint declaration" actually says before we condemn it? Or is anything that Lutherans agree with wrong by definition?

I suspect the joint declaration won't be as bad as we expect.  But, I still think there is a problem with many recent attempts as ecumenism.  A few years ago Bishop Fellay of the SSPX gave a really interesting talk on ecumenism. He stated the Vatican II document on ecumenism is correct that there are other truths in other religions, but complained that the document didn't label what had hitherto been labeled false religions as false religions. Because he stated even if a religion has 90% of the truth that isn't really good enough. So for example he said a student taking a test who answered "what is 2+2" with a "3" would not get very far in convincing his teacher that "3" is 3/4th of "4"!  

He then gave an interesting analogy to Assisi II. He said at Assisi II all the different religious groups there didn't actually pray together, but setup in different rooms and prayed separately. Thus, he compared Assisi II to an airport where various airplanes were docked at the terminal.  But, he said at this airport only one of the airplanes could fly, that of the Catholic Church.  Now this doesn't mean that the other groups didn't have airplanes. Indeed, he stated the Orthodox actually had a fully functional airplane capable of flight. Alas, Orthodoxy's plane lacked a pilot, the Pope, and thus would not get far.  The various Protetsant sects airplanes were even in worst shape as they had engine trouble as they lacked the full sacraments.  And, further down the line the Buddhist's airplane was only made of paper mâché.  

I suspect NOtard will find some irony in what Bishop Fellay said, but I think he's right in what he said. The church needs not to be shy about admitting it's the only religion that is going to get you anywhere.  The church has always acknowledged there are truths outside of the Church, but traditionally when it came to the truths found in other religions we used those truths to help convert people from those religions not to tell them their religion had a lot of truth in them.  I strongly support true ecumenicism like that which Pope Benedict has done with the Anglicans in setting up an Ordinariate for them.  But, unless this joint document is being made with a group of Lutherans that want to accept Papal Supremacy and Catholic doctrine I doubt there is little to look forward to.  

Oh, I should have just said "this" :)
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#39
Quote:The buddhist airplane was made of paper mâché. 

Wait. You would have to check if that paper mâché airplane was not an illusion.
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#40
What is there to be gained from ecumenism with the Lutherans?  Liberal Catholics tried to get Luther Re-communicated and Paul VI told them NO. The only way for them to join us is swim the tiber in groups or individually. You can't get an ordinariate for Lutheranism. They only have 2 sacraments because Luther rejected the others and the are sola scriptura and sola fide. Its not easy to get them to come back. They are quite different from the origins of Orthodoxy and Anglicanism. It would be like having ecumenical meetings with the Anabaptists.
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