Vatican, Lutherans Preparing Document on Reformation
(08-31-2011, 09:45 PM)NOtard Wrote: Doesn't anybody think it would be good to wait until we find out what this "joint declaration" actually says before we condemn it? Or is anything that Lutherans agree with wrong by definition?

In the mean time, brush up on the history with this:

On Martin Luther:
On Lutheranism:

And for a modern commentary, nothing beats this:
(08-31-2011, 10:56 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
Quote:The buddhist airplane was made of paper machete.

Wait. You would have to check if that paper machete airplane was not an illusion.

I'm wondering how we get a machete confused with an airplane, paper or not.
More Catholic Discussion:

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
(08-31-2011, 08:23 PM)Nic Wrote: Here is your "Traditional" Pope in action, neo-cons.  I wonder how they'll defend this one...

He speaks out of both sides of his mouth - in a certain way, he is even worse than his predecessor because this kind of crap mixed in with seemingly orthodox sentiments just further advances the confusion - the "diabolical disorientation" that has virtually taken over the official structure of the Church.  The hierarchy of our religion is certainly in shambles.

There can be no ecumenism in the manner of its current execution. What we have here is a wishy-washy attempt to say "let's all agree that we really have the same God on our lips when we pray". In reality, we have the God of infinite mercy, glorious to behold, whereas the Lutherans and all their offshoots beg before a God of terror, petty and vile to wonder about. For us, the Lord Jesus Christ has purified our whole being, body and soul, by the regeneration of the Cross; for the Lutherans, the Lord is a trickster who covers our effluent stench and sneaks us into Heaven past God like some Warner Brothers' cartoon villain.
(08-31-2011, 10:21 PM)Aragon Wrote: This is the only "joint declaration" that the Lutherans and the Catholic hierarchy should be signing:

Quote:I, NN, have held and believed errors contrary to Catholic teaching. Now, enlightened by divine grace, I kneel before you, Reverend Father ...., having before my eyes and touching with my hand the holy Gospels. And with firm faith I believe and profess each and all the articles contained in the Apostles' Creed, that is: I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; He descended into hell, the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty, from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the holy Catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

I firmly admit and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and all the other constitutions and ordinances of the Church.

I admit the Sacred Scriptures in the sense which has been held and is still held by holy Mother Church, whose duty it is to judge the true sense and interpretation of Sacred Scripture, and I shall never accept or interpret them in a sense contrary to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

I profess that the sacraments of the New Law are truly and precisely seven in number, instituted for the salvation of mankind, though all are not necessary for each individual: baptism, confirmation, holy Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony. I profess that all confer grace, and that baptism, confirmation, and holy orders cannot be repeated without sacrilege. I also accept and admit the ritual of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all the aforementioned sacraments.

I accept and hold in each and every part all that has been defined and declared by the Sacred Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification. I profess that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, real, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; that in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is really, truly, and substantially present, and that there takes place in the Mass what the Church calls transubstantiation, which is the change of all the substance of bread into the body of Christ and of all substance of wine into His blood. I confess also that in receiving under either of these species one receives Jesus Christ whole and entire.

I firmly hold that Purgatory exists and that the souls detained there can be helped by the prayers of the faithful.

Likewise I hold that the saints, who reign with Jesus Christ, should be venerated and invoked, that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.

I firmly profess that the images of Jesus Christ and of the Mother of God, ever a Virgin, as well as of all the saints should be given due honor and veneration. I also affirm that Jesus Christ left to the Church the faculty to grant indulgences, and that their use is most salutary to the Christian people. I recognize the holy, Roman, Catholic, and apostolic Church as the mother and teacher of all the churches, and I promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Pontiff, successor of St. Peter, the prince of the apostles and vicar of Jesus Christ.

Moreover, without hesitation I accept and profess all that has been handed down, defined, and declared by the sacred canons and by the general councils, especially by the Sacred Council of Trent and by the Vatican General Council, and in special manner all that concerns the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. At the same time I condemn and reprove all that the Church has condemned and reproved. This same Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, I now freely profess and I truly adhere to it. With the help of God, I promise and swear to maintain and profess this faith entirely, inviolately, and with firm constancy until the last breath of life. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and publicly professed by all who depend on me and over whom I shall have charge.

So help me God and these holy Gospels

For the love of God, what is the Holy Father playing at?  In his fight against secular relativism he's losing the fight against religious relativism.
I just don't understand that some people actually have hopes for such this "joint declaration".
To even describe how sick and tired I am of these totally meaningless "joint declarations" with all sorts of heretics, "papal messages" to pagans and infidels for their "holy" days and so on, would take days.
Based on the experience we have had the last 40 years, "joint declarations" such as the one of justification, must be said to be devoid of any real meaning. The parties agree on how to word it ambiguously enough and then go home and announce to their respective audiences that  the other party now agrees  and has changed their stance. That is what happened with the one on justification.
Absolutely meaningless.
I will believe that we finally have a truly traditional Pope the day he declares - without ambiguity - "outside of the Church there is positively no salvation".
God's Rottweiler at it again!
(09-01-2011, 08:10 AM)Scotus Wrote: I will believe that we finally have a truly traditional Pope the day he declares - without ambiguity - "outside of the Church there is positively no salvation".

That dogma has been defined with continuity since the beginning. It is unwavering orthodoxy and can never be changed. Anyone who says different is to be rebuked; anyone who persists is to be excommunicated; no matter who it is.

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