This is what obedience looks like
#21
Nah, I'm not discerning monastic life. I just want to spend the week before Christmas trying to improve my spiritual life.
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#22
(12-04-2011, 11:02 PM)Aragon Wrote: Nah, I'm not discerning monastic life. I just want to spend the week before Christmas trying to improve my spiritual life.

May you have a blessed visit with them and please tell us your impressions of the monastery when you return. It looks like a beautiful area of Italy that they are located in.
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#23
(12-04-2011, 11:13 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote:
(12-04-2011, 11:02 PM)Aragon Wrote: Nah, I'm not discerning monastic life. I just want to spend the week before Christmas trying to improve my spiritual life.

May you have a blessed visit with them and please tell us your impressions of the monastery when you return. It looks like a beautiful area of Italy that they are located in.

Cheers! I'll be sure to take a lot of photos and post them on the forum.
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#24
(12-04-2011, 11:02 PM)Aragon Wrote: Nah, I'm not discerning monastic life. I just want to spend the week before Christmas trying to improve my spiritual life.

pray for me while you're over there!
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#25
(12-04-2011, 10:47 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: The Church just put a new missal for the NO into effect. It isn't going anywhere anytime soon if ever in my lifetime.

Indeed.

Traditionalists seem to have forgotten what they're supposed to be fighting for. This isn't about a bit of Latin here, a few notes of chant there, or a puff of incense somewhere between. This is about the very definition of the reality of the Mass as taught by the Council of Trent: what makes the Mass a Catholic Mass. It is what separates the Catholic Mass (in all of its various rites across the world) from all the heretical liturgies of the enemies of the Church. This is a doctrine that the Novus Ordo liturgy, regardless of how many re-translations and reforms it undergoes, refuses to unambiguously profess. It is this core issue that is hardly ever discussed in tradition circles anymore. All that matters is preferential aesthetics these days, and traditional Catholics are caving in on all fronts. To them, the Mass is "Catholic" if it is aesthetically pleasing; and if you try to remind them of this problem, they label you a pessimist and a nay-sayer, one who refuses to give credit where credit is due, or even a Catholic with a schismatic mentality. But in reality it is they who do not understand what traditional Catholic is really about. They were attracted to traditional Catholicism because of the aesthetic appeal of the traditions of the Church; to them, that is what the fight for tradition is all about. But that is not what Abp. Lefebvre fought for.
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#26
Who is fighting solely for aesthetics?  Aesthetics are important, because they help raise our hearts to God, but every Catholic worthy of the label understands that what distinguishes the Catholic Mass from Protestant services is the re-presentation of Our Lord's sacrifice.  Surely nobody denies this is the key component.

That's why the parish linked in the OP is so impressive, because the priest understands this teaching clearly, and I think this must come through to his parishioners, even in the context of the Novus Ordo.  We all know the NO is ambiguous; as long as it continues to be offered, we need priests who are well catechized in the reality of the Mass, to make the Holy Sacrifice evident to everyone who assists at Mass, notwithstanding the NO's shortcomings.

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#27
(12-05-2011, 01:14 AM)AlphaOmega Wrote: Who is fighting solely for aesthetics?

More than are willing to admit it.

Quote:That's why the parish linked in the OP is so impressive, because the priest understands this teaching clearly, and I think this must come through to his parishioners, even in the context of the Novus Ordo.

This is good, but it's not about the priest; it's about the liturgy.

Quote:  We all know the NO is ambiguous

Does the Bride of Christ promote ambiguity?

Quote:; as long as it continues to be offered, we need priests who are well catechized in the reality of the Mass, to make the Holy Sacrifice evident to everyone who assists at Mass, notwithstanding the NO's shortcomings.

I don't understand this. Are you saying that an authentically Catholic Rite approved by the authentic magisterium of the Catholic Church is deficient?
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#28
Yes, that's what I'm saying.  That's not controversial; we all agree on that don't we?

The NO is ambiguous and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.  As long as this remains the case, proper catechesis will have to (and can, I think) compensate for much of this.  In my experience, much of what passes for catechesis these days -- both for children born into the faith and for adult converts -- is sorely lacking.

A priest like the one in the OP would make evident the reality of the Sacrifice -- in his sermons, by showing proper reverence to the Eucharist in various ways (e.g. promoting Communion kneeling on the tongue, not using Eucharistic Ministers, etc.), and by promoting proper catechesis for everyone in the parish (in First Communion classes, Confirmation classes, etc.).  I understand the importance of having a liturgy that is clear about what is really happening -- that's why I assist at the TLM! -- but the importance of well-formed priests shouldn't be understated.
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#29
Of course, as soon as I posted that I realized there are some folks here who do not think the NO is authentically Catholic, and that the Magisterium that prepared it is also not authentically Catholic.  So obviously we don't all agree on this point.

I do think the NO is authentically Catholic, and that the Magisterium post-VII is authentically Catholic.  I think this particular liturgy is not what it could and should be, as compared to the TLM which is so much clearer on the key points of what makes a Catholic Mass truly Catholic.

I don't know your opinion on this INPEFESS.  Where do you stand on this?
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#30
(12-05-2011, 02:27 AM)AlphaOmega Wrote: I think this particular liturgy is not what it could and should be, as compared to the TLM which is so much clearer on the key points of what makes a Catholic Mass truly Catholic.

How is it possible that a liturgy can be, in effect, "less Catholic" than another if it approved by the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Ghost to safeguard us agains the errors that threaten the Church? To me, it is an idea that seeks to avoid having to face the grisly reality that, surely, "an enemy hath done this" by simply accepting it as "inferior" yet Catholic nonetheless. None of the aids God has given us for salvation in the Catholic Church can be "inferior" to anything if you believe that it is truly the religion founded by Our Lord, Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost guides the Church ever-forward, not backward.

Quote:I don't know your opinion on this INPEFESS.  Where do you stand on this?

I do not believe that the post-Vatican II magisterium speaks on behalf of the Catholic Church; nor do I believe that the Novus Ordo Mass is identical with the Catholic Mass according to the teachings of the Council of Trent; nor do I believe that the form of religion promoted by the Novus Ordo program of reform is the same religion as the Catholic religion. Coming to terms with these realities is harsh, but, in the end, reality must be faced for what it is. To accept a compromise between the way these two structures conduct themselves is to undo everything the Church was founded to do.
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