Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles by Fr. Cekada
(12-29-2011, 09:40 PM)Stubborn Wrote: It does not say your going to hell - or heaven - or even that your gonna die. Again, read what it says.

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(12-29-2011, 09:42 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:38 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:32 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:30 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Trent defined what with that canon? That not only are the Sacraments necessary for salvation - (BOD is not a Sacrament) but the "desire" can put one in the state of grace - since when does that equate to defining salvation via BOD?

Ah, the old aut = and theory. Can't be helped. I'm done. +PAX

It says what it says.

Sure; it says that the Sacrament or the desire for the sacrament are necessary for salvation.  The state of grace = salvation, as grasshopper points out.  True desire for penance or baptism or the Eucharist can stand in for the full sacrament.  This is Church teaching, of the highest authority.  

FYI, the state of grace does not = salvation.
Lucifer was once in the state of grace.

There is no mention of salvation via any desire anywhere in any authoritative church teaching - including the one you are misinterpreting.
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(12-29-2011, 09:42 PM)Stubborn Wrote: So there are 3 Baptisms now? What about Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Again, I ask for non-contradictory teachings.

Look at what St. Thomas said in what I posted earlier:

Objection 1. It seems that the three kinds of Baptism are not fittingly described as Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost. Because the Apostle says (Ephesians 4:5): "One Faith, one Baptism." Now there is but one Faith. Therefore there should not be three Baptisms.

to which he responds:

Reply to Objection 1. The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.

Again, read the full question on baptism from St. Thomas.  It is what the Tridentine Fathers based their doctrine on.
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(12-29-2011, 09:45 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:42 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:38 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:32 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:30 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Trent defined what with that canon? That not only are the Sacraments necessary for salvation - (BOD is not a Sacrament) but the "desire" can put one in the state of grace - since when does that equate to defining salvation via BOD?

Ah, the old aut = and theory. Can't be helped. I'm done. +PAX

It says what it says.

Sure; it says that the Sacrament or the desire for the sacrament are necessary for salvation.  The state of grace = salvation, as grasshopper points out.  True desire for penance or baptism or the Eucharist can stand in for the full sacrament.  This is Church teaching, of the highest authority.  

FYI, the state of grace does not = salvation.
Lucifer was once in the state of grace.

There is no mention of salvation via any desire anywhere in any authoritative church teaching - including the one you are misinterpreting.

Sure there is, in the Canons of Trent, and the Ordinary teachings derived from the Counter-Reformation.
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(12-29-2011, 09:47 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:42 PM)Stubborn Wrote: So there are 3 Baptisms now? What about Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Again, I ask for non-contradictory teachings.

Look at what St. Thomas said in what I posted earlier:

Objection 1. It seems that the three kinds of Baptism are not fittingly described as Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost. Because the Apostle says (Ephesians 4:5): "One Faith, one Baptism." Now there is but one Faith. Therefore there should not be three Baptisms.

to which he responds:

Reply to Objection 1. The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.

Again, read the full question on baptism from St. Thomas.  It is what the Tridentine Fathers based their doctrine on.

And you do not see any contradiction between BOD and Sacramental Baptism because they are included in the Baptism of water when water is not even used.



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(12-29-2011, 09:48 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:45 PM)Stubborn Wrote: FYI, the state of grace does not = salvation.
Lucifer was once in the state of grace.

There is no mention of salvation via any desire anywhere in any authoritative church teaching - including the one you are misinterpreting.

Sure there is, in the Canons of Trent, and the Ordinary teachings derived from the Counter-Reformation.

Prove it - all I ask for is one from Trent - no need to post more than that - but I'm not taking your word for it.
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(12-29-2011, 09:45 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:42 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:38 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:32 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:30 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Trent defined what with that canon? That not only are the Sacraments necessary for salvation - (BOD is not a Sacrament) but the "desire" can put one in the state of grace - since when does that equate to defining salvation via BOD?

Ah, the old aut = and theory. Can't be helped. I'm done. +PAX

It says what it says.

Sure; it says that the Sacrament or the desire for the sacrament are necessary for salvation.  The state of grace = salvation, as grasshopper points out.  True desire for penance or baptism or the Eucharist can stand in for the full sacrament.  This is Church teaching, of the highest authority.  

FYI, the state of grace does not = salvation.
Lucifer was once in the state of grace.

There is no mention of salvation via any desire anywhere in any authoritative church teaching - including the one you are misinterpreting.

However, dying in the state of grace does equal salvation. That's implicit in the very meaning of "state of grace". And baptism of desire is only relevant in the case of imminent death. It doesn't mean you can blithely go through your whole life never intending to be baptized, and nobody here is pretending that it does mean that. It has very limited applicability. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all.
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(12-29-2011, 09:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(12-29-2011, 09:45 PM)Stubborn Wrote: FYI, the state of grace does not = salvation.
Lucifer was once in the state of grace.

There is no mention of salvation via any desire anywhere in any authoritative church teaching - including the one you are misinterpreting.

However, dying in the state of grace does equal salvation. That's implicit in the very meaning of "state of grace". And baptism of desire is only relevant in the case of imminent death. It doesn't mean you can blithely go through your whole life never intending to be baptized, and nobody here is pretending that it does mean that. It has very limited applicability. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all.

Dying in the state of grace is via BOD may or may not suffice for salvation. As it is now, the Church teaches it suffices for grace and justification. THAT is all She has ever taught infallibly. Never anywhere has She ever infallibly taught that one who dies unbaptized goes to heaven.

That's just the truth of the matter. People who make the leap to salvation via BOD do so on their own, then claim that  that is what is written. As though the popes and councils forgot something or were incapable of actually finishing what they started to say.

The fact is, you will NEVER find infallible teachings that reward salvation to the unbaptized because if the Church taught such a teaching explicitly, She would explicitly be contradicting the words of Our Lord. 

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(12-29-2011, 09:10 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: Jenn,
Why would Trent ever use the phrase "desire for them" in reference to the sacraments if it wasn't interested in introducing any mitigation into their doctrine, and one that previously existed to boot.


Does it not stand to reason that men who receive the sacraments should also have a "desire for them?" The missionaries had to be extremely careful. They were not to be baptizing anyone unless they were as sure as they could be that the potential convert was a true believer. In short, they had to desire to be baptized (I have to wonder why the missionaries put themselves at risk of being eaten alive or roasted over a spit if BOD would have sufficed, but I digress..). That one phrase keeps popping up in these discussions as though the word "desire" means that BOD has been formally defined. Doesn't it matter that true and natural water has been formally defined? I simply don't understand the disconnect. The statement "true and natural water" is there in plain English for anyone to read.

Quote:CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

How do you reconcile your interpretation of the above with this:

"If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for Baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,' let him be anathema."

As I've mentioned before, if anyone can point me to the formally defined dogma of BOD, I'm all eyes. As is customary during this debate, there are endless posts explaining to me why I should not take this infallible statement at face value. That I simply am not understanding it, or I'm reading it all wrong, or I don't have the training to read it "in context". In short, I am being told that Trent didn't mean to say exactly what it DID say, so I shouldn't take it too seriously. Obviously, I reject those assertions.
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Church Teaching on Baptism of Desire including Trents teaching [the same]

Church Teaching on Baptism of Desire:

"The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed. (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57)" St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?
"By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Fourth Chapter, A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
"baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent" St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Moral Theology Manual (15th century), Bk. 6, no. 95., Concerning Baptism
"Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments." Encyclical On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore) by Pope Pius IX, 1863
“Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all, is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water with the prescribed form of words.” (Canon 737)
“Those who have died without baptism are not to be given ecclesiastical burial. Catechumens who die without baptism through no fault of their own are to be counted among the baptized.” (Canon 1239) 1917 Code of Canon Law
"A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church." Pope St. Pius X, Catechism of Christian Doctrine
"17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Sacraments - Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized
"The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood" 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism
"The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John, iii), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John, xiv): "He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins" 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire
"The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius." 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire
"We have already alluded to the funeral oration pronounced by St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II, a catechumen. The doctrine of the baptism of desire is here clearly set forth. St. Ambrose asks: "Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for? Certainly he obtained it because he asked for it." St. Augustine (IV, De Bapt., xxii) and St. Bernard (Ep. Ixxvii, ad H. de S. Victore) likewise discourse in the same sense concerning the baptism of desire." 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire
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