Baptism of Desire: Avoiding the Red Herrings on a Nearby Thread
(01-24-2012, 08:33 PM)Parmandur Wrote: Well, the point is less to correct you, since you are obstinate in error to the point of misreading and ignoring the teachings of the Church, but to let it be known that you stand outside the opinion of the Church.  Since you asked, here is Ott on the issue:

[quote='Ludwig Ott']
2. Substitutes for Sacramental Baptism

In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei prox.)

a) Baptism of desire (Baptismus flaminis sive Spiritus Sancti) Baptism of desire is the explicit or implicit desire for sacramental baptism (votum baptismi) associated with perfect contrition (contrition based on charity).
 
The Council of Trent teaches that justification from original sin is not possible " without the washing unto regeneration or the desire for the
same."

According to the teaching of Holy Writ, perfect love possesses justifying power. Luke 7, 47: "Many sins are forgiven her because she hath loved much." John 14, 21: " He that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: l and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." Luke 23, 43 • " This, day thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

The chief witnesses from Tradition are St. Ambrose and St. Augustine. In the funeral oration on the Emperor Valentine II, who died without Baptism, St.  Ambrose says: " Should he not acquire the grace for which he longed? Certainly: As he desired it, he has attained it . . . His pious desire has absolved him " (De obitu Valent. 51, 53). St. Augustine declared: " I find that not only suffering for the sake of Christ can replace that which is lacking in Baptism, but also faith and conversion of the heart (fidem conversionemque cordis), if perhaps the shortness of the time does not permit the celebration of the mystery, of Baptism " (De bapt. IV 22, 29). In the period of early Scholasticism St. Bernard of Clairvaux (Ep. 77 c. 2 n. 6-9), Hugo of St. Victor (De sacr. 116, 7) and the Summa Sententiarum (V 5) defended the possibility of Baptism of desire against Peter Abelard. Cf. S. th. III 68, 2.
       
Baptism of desire works ex opere operantis. It bestows Sanctifying Grace, which remits original sin, all actual sins, and the eternal  punishments for sin.  Venial sins and temporal punishments for sin are remitted according to the intensity of the subjective disposition. The baptismal character is not imprinted nor is it the gateway to the other sacraments.

Just to point out, nowhere in the exposition does it say that this gnostic phenomenon called "baptism of desire" occurs only at death. 

So, what happens when a person who has had this "baptism of desire" remit original and actual mortal sins only to sin mortally again?  Does this "baptism of desire" make him impeccable, preventing him from commission of any further mortal sin?  Can he re-baptize himself with the desire for the laver of regeneration and remit any further actual mortal sins after his first "baptism of desire?"

How do you reconcile the notion of faith and conversion of heart replacing that which is lacking in Baptism from St. Augustine's quotation provided above to Ott's definition of "baptism of desire?" 

-- Nicole
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It only matters if someone dies before actual baptism.  This isn't exactly rocket science.  :eyeroll:
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(01-24-2012, 06:23 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(01-24-2012, 05:04 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(01-24-2012, 03:12 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(01-24-2012, 02:39 PM)yablabo Wrote: Is St. Liguori referring to "saved" in the same sense that the Ninevites were "saved" temporally by their penance only later to be destroyed by God?  or "saved" in the sense that at death one enters into the beatific vision?  and If the second is answered in the affirmative, then what happens when a person sins mortally after his "baptism of desire"?  does he once again baptize himself by desire and experience the remission of that sin?  if he can continually re-baptize himself by his desire for the laver of regeneration after sinning mortally, what sense is there ever to have recourse to the sacraments, least of all Baptism and Penance?

Baptism of Desire, if attained, is a one-time deal at the time of death, due to perfect contrition and charity.  Really, why are you trying to make this so hard, when it really is simple?

This post should end the thread, but sadly (as experience shows), it will not...  if I ever post in another BoD thread on Fish Eaters, then please PM me to yell at me (out of charity)!  :LOL:

Can do.  :LOL:

May I ask for the same thing? I learned ages ago that there is no use arguing with Feeneyites! I asked my sister some time ago to......if she ever finds me in a nursing home sitting in the "party room" with a party hat perched on my head.........to just SHOOT me. The same goes for engaging in arguments with the followers of the hate monger, leonard feeney.
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(01-25-2012, 04:48 AM)Parmandur Wrote: It only matters if someone dies before actual baptism.  This isn't exactly rocket science.  :eyeroll:

Funny...
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(01-25-2012, 01:17 PM)yablabo Wrote:
(01-25-2012, 04:48 AM)Parmandur Wrote: It only matters if someone dies before actual baptism.  This isn't exactly rocket science.  :eyeroll:

Funny...

Hardly.  :eyeroll:
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I don't understand; Catholics believe the following right?

- Outside the Church there is no salvation
- Non Catholics can be saved with sincere faith or invincible ignorance
- Baptized and believers are considered Catholics
- Unbaptized can be saved with desire for baptism
- Unbaptized are outside the Church
- Heretics are outside the Church
- Heretics can be saved
- Heretics are part of the Church, though not visibly.

Hence, the unbaptized, invincibly ignorant, and non material heretics can be saved and are a part of the Church, even though they are outside the Church and even though 'outside the Church there is no salvation'

It doesn't seem to add up.
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(01-25-2012, 09:47 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: I don't understand; Catholics believe the following right?


- Outside the Church there is no salvation
- Non Catholics can be saved with sincere faith or invincible ignorance
- Baptized and believers are considered Catholics
- Unbaptized can be saved with desire for baptism
- Unbaptized are outside the Church
- Heretics are outside the Church
- Heretics can be saved
- Heretics are part of the Church, though not visibly.

One can only say yes to an amended list:


- Outside the Church there is no salvation
- Those who are baptized, have faith, frequent the sacraments, have not left the Church willingly, and have not been separated by judicial/juridical authority are part of the Church.
- Unbaptized are outside the Church
- Heretics are outside the Church
- Heretics can be saved if they are re-admitted to the Church through the power of the Keys before death.




(01-25-2012, 09:47 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: Hence, the unbaptized, invincibly ignorant, and non material heretics can be saved and are a part of the Church, even though they are outside the Church and even though 'outside the Church there is no salvation'

It doesn't seem to add up.

Your list doesn't add up...it's full of contradiction.

-- Nicole
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(01-25-2012, 10:38 PM)yablabo Wrote:
(01-25-2012, 09:47 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: I don't understand; Catholics believe the following right?


- Outside the Church there is no salvation
- Non Catholics can be saved with sincere faith or invincible ignorance
- Baptized and believers are considered Catholics
- Unbaptized can be saved with desire for baptism
- Unbaptized are outside the Church
- Heretics are outside the Church
- Heretics can be saved
- Heretics are part of the Church, though not visibly.

One can only say yes to an amended list:


- Outside the Church there is no salvation
- Those who are baptized, have faith, frequent the sacraments, have not left the Church willingly, and have not been separated by judicial/juridical authority are part of the Church.
- Unbaptized are outside the Church
- Heretics are outside the Church
- Heretics can be saved if they are re-admitted to the Church through the power of the Keys before death.




(01-25-2012, 09:47 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: Hence, the unbaptized, invincibly ignorant, and non material heretics can be saved and are a part of the Church, even though they are outside the Church and even though 'outside the Church there is no salvation'

It doesn't seem to add up.

Your list doesn't add up...it's full of contradiction.

-- Nicole

Thus my point is illustrated.
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(01-25-2012, 09:47 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: I don't understand; Catholics believe the following right?

- Outside the Church there is no salvation
- Non Catholics can be saved with sincere faith or invincible ignorance
- Baptized and believers are considered Catholics
- Unbaptized can be saved with desire for baptism
- Unbaptized are outside the Church
- Heretics are outside the Church
- Heretics can be saved
- Heretics are part of the Church, though not visibly.

Hence, the unbaptized, invincibly ignorant, and non material heretics can be saved and are a part of the Church, even though they are outside the Church and even though 'outside the Church there is no salvation'

It doesn't seem to add up.

No, Catholics do not believe everything you've listed (I agree with #1, 3-6, would amend #7 and completely disagree with #2 and 8.).

The divine and Catholic Faith is absolutely necessary for salvation (and Church membership), so actually, heretics are not members of the Church and cannot be saved as heretics (they profess a false faith).  If they receive divine Faith and perfect charity, then they be saved as members of the Church in voto.

Those who labor under invincible ignorance and sincerely seek the truth and to do God's will will be given an extraordinary grace to accept the Faith and make an act of perfect charity.  Invincible ignorance, of itself, does not save.
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Finally, it is to be noted that only adults are capable of receiving the baptism of desire.
???

The Catholic Encyclopedia explains BoD, then ends with that statement. Nuts.
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