The Eastern Churches and St. Thomas Aquinas
(02-08-2012, 07:55 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:54 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:48 PM)TrentCath Wrote: I have no intention of replying to your tiresome sanctimonious posts

You treat your words like they are perspicuous, when that is hardly the case.  Melkite misunderstood what you meant by "pain," and you accuse him wrongfully of heresy.  The De Fide teachings of the Church do not require of the fiathful what you say they do, and what they do require Melkite has assented to in a Catholic fashion.  You accuse me of being sanctimonious, but at least my mother taught me to apologize for my bad behavior.  :P

And you have a remarkable talent for obfuscation

Obfuscation, or seeing what is there?  Clearly Melkite, coming from a non-Latin context, misread you as making purgatory physical.  You then accused him falsely and maliciously of heresy.  When it was pointed out that he said nothing out of line, you continued to insist that you were sticking to facts, therefore you have no need of apologizing for being an asshole to him.  To point this out is the opposite of obfuscation.  Claiming that you are guiltless is obfuscation.  Melkite has clearly said that those in purgatory suffer from the lack of the presence of God, and long for this completion.  This is what is meant in the Councils by pain.  He said nothing wrong, but you acted wrongly by accusing him.  To say someone is speaking heretically is the same as calling them a heretic, since being a heretic resides in the act of believing and professing heretical beliefs.  Since he did neither, you are guilty of bearing false witness against him, and ought to apologize.
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(02-08-2012, 06:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote: A) its a very different situation, and
b)
Quote: Even the Orthodox don't reject some kind of intermediary state, so what you have stated are not exact opposites.  Also, it is perfectly acceptable to believe Purgatory is not painful.  The only reason Latins 'know' it is painful is from private revelation, something that can NEVER be required for faith, thus not de fide.

When I said painful, I was referring to physical pain, because generally that is what one would think of, especially when it is common among the Latins to believe there is fire in purgatory.  I personally don't call the place purgatory, and I don't believe there is any pain in the senses.  But certainly, knowing you could have gone straight to heaven and now have to wait longer because you didn't try hard enough to resist sin is going to cause suffering.  So I absolutely affirm that it is a place where there is necessary suffering, cleansing, but also a place of great joy because you still know that God loves you and one day you will be completely and thoroughly wrapped in that love.

Paramandur and Vetus, I appreciate you sticking up for me.  Especially you, vetus,  when I first saw that I really wondered if hell had not frozen over.  But if trent doesn't want to apologize, it's ok.  I don't rerally need one.  He's arguing for what he believes is the truth, and I'm sure you have both seen that I sometimes act rashly and emotionally trying to explain my position.  We're all good here.  I haven't taken any personal (at least not more than fleeting) offense from what trent has said.
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(02-08-2012, 08:57 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:55 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:54 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:48 PM)TrentCath Wrote: I have no intention of replying to your tiresome sanctimonious posts

You treat your words like they are perspicuous, when that is hardly the case.  Melkite misunderstood what you meant by "pain," and you accuse him wrongfully of heresy.  The De Fide teachings of the Church do not require of the fiathful what you say they do, and what they do require Melkite has assented to in a Catholic fashion.  You accuse me of being sanctimonious, but at least my mother taught me to apologize for my bad behavior.  :P

And you have a remarkable talent for obfuscation

Obfuscation, or seeing what is there?  Clearly Melkite, coming from a non-Latin context, misread you as making purgatory physical.  You then accused him falsely and maliciously of heresy.  When it was pointed out that he said nothing out of line, you continued to insist that you were sticking to facts, therefore you have no need of apologizing for being an asshole to him.  To point this out is the opposite of obfuscation.  Claiming that you are guiltless is obfuscation.  Melkite has clearly said that those in purgatory suffer from the lack of the presence of God, and long for this completion.  This is what is meant in the Councils by pain.  He said nothing wrong, but you acted wrongly by accusing him.  To say someone is speaking heretically is the same as calling them a heretic, since being a heretic resides in the act of believing and professing heretical beliefs.  Since he did neither, you are guilty of bearing false witness against him, and ought to apologize.

Nope obfuscation, and no a heretic who obstinately maintains these beliefs despite being warned.
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(02-09-2012, 05:03 AM)TrentCath Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 08:57 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:55 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:54 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:48 PM)TrentCath Wrote: I have no intention of replying to your tiresome sanctimonious posts

You treat your words like they are perspicuous, when that is hardly the case.  Melkite misunderstood what you meant by "pain," and you accuse him wrongfully of heresy.  The De Fide teachings of the Church do not require of the fiathful what you say they do, and what they do require Melkite has assented to in a Catholic fashion.  You accuse me of being sanctimonious, but at least my mother taught me to apologize for my bad behavior.  :P

And you have a remarkable talent for obfuscation

Obfuscation, or seeing what is there?  Clearly Melkite, coming from a non-Latin context, misread you as making purgatory physical.  You then accused him falsely and maliciously of heresy.  When it was pointed out that he said nothing out of line, you continued to insist that you were sticking to facts, therefore you have no need of apologizing for being an asshole to him.  To point this out is the opposite of obfuscation.  Claiming that you are guiltless is obfuscation.  Melkite has clearly said that those in purgatory suffer from the lack of the presence of God, and long for this completion.  This is what is meant in the Councils by pain.  He said nothing wrong, but you acted wrongly by accusing him.  To say someone is speaking heretically is the same as calling them a heretic, since being a heretic resides in the act of believing and professing heretical beliefs.  Since he did neither, you are guilty of bearing false witness against him, and ought to apologize.

Nope obfuscation, and no a heretic who obstinately maintains these beliefs despite being warned.

In the post above the one you just posted, Melkite abjured any hint of heresy by acknowledging the suffering of the souls in Purgatory.  You were wrong to accuse him earlier, and you are foolish to accuse him now that he is absolutely clearly in line with the De Fide doctrines of the Church on this issue.  It is you who obfuscate with false accusations against your brother.

Melkite, you are kind to not take offense at being insulted and slandered.  A very Christian attitude, much to be admired.
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(02-09-2012, 05:25 AM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 05:03 AM)TrentCath Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 08:57 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:55 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:54 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-08-2012, 07:48 PM)TrentCath Wrote: I have no intention of replying to your tiresome sanctimonious posts

You treat your words like they are perspicuous, when that is hardly the case.  Melkite misunderstood what you meant by "pain," and you accuse him wrongfully of heresy.  The De Fide teachings of the Church do not require of the fiathful what you say they do, and what they do require Melkite has assented to in a Catholic fashion.  You accuse me of being sanctimonious, but at least my mother taught me to apologize for my bad behavior.  :P

And you have a remarkable talent for obfuscation

Obfuscation, or seeing what is there?  Clearly Melkite, coming from a non-Latin context, misread you as making purgatory physical.  You then accused him falsely and maliciously of heresy.  When it was pointed out that he said nothing out of line, you continued to insist that you were sticking to facts, therefore you have no need of apologizing for being an asshole to him.  To point this out is the opposite of obfuscation.  Claiming that you are guiltless is obfuscation.  Melkite has clearly said that those in purgatory suffer from the lack of the presence of God, and long for this completion.  This is what is meant in the Councils by pain.  He said nothing wrong, but you acted wrongly by accusing him.  To say someone is speaking heretically is the same as calling them a heretic, since being a heretic resides in the act of believing and professing heretical beliefs.  Since he did neither, you are guilty of bearing false witness against him, and ought to apologize.

Nope obfuscation, and no a heretic who obstinately maintains these beliefs despite being warned.

In the post above the one you just posted, Melkite abjured any hint of heresy by acknowledging the suffering of the souls in Purgatory.  You were wrong to accuse him earlier, and you are foolish to accuse him now that he is absolutely clearly in line with the De Fide doctrines of the Church on this issue.  It is you who obfuscate with false accusations against your brother.

Melkite, you are kind to not take offense at being insulted and slandered.  A very Christian attitude, much to be admired.

Let us be clear, in order for me to have committed sin, you would have to show that my statement was unreasonable and therefore rash. You cannot do that because my saying that melkite had professed a heresy was entirely reasonable given both his wording and hid demonstrated attitude of contempt for so called Latin theology and St Thomas.

Your continued insistence on an apology is therefore nothing but stubbornness, I suggest rather than spending your time falsely accusing others of sin you read some moral theology.
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(02-09-2012, 06:07 AM)TrentCath Wrote: Let us be clear, in order for me to have committed sin, you would have to show that my statement was unreasonable and therefore rash. You cannot do that because my saying that melkite had professed a heresy was entirely reasonable given both his wording and hid demonstrated attitude of contempt for so called Latin theology and St Thomas.

Your continued insistence on an apology is therefore nothing but stubbornness, I suggest rather than spending your time falsely accusing others of sin you read some moral theology.

Even if a misunderstanding is reasonable, one can still apologize for it and any hurt or offense it may have caused.  It would probably be of spiritual benefit to you to apologize.

You seem to have a tendency to rely on intellect and knowledge. That is what I am like too.  In my case, this tendency leaves me in great need of  developing kindness and humility. I find that is useful for me to apologize in situations such as the one you are in now.  There is so much more to our Faith than being right in debates.  When I have forgotten that I have been very harsh and arrogant.  I encourage you to think and pray about this.  You don't want to end up like me, do you?  :)
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(02-09-2012, 10:34 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 06:07 AM)TrentCath Wrote: Let us be clear, in order for me to have committed sin, you would have to show that my statement was unreasonable and therefore rash. You cannot do that because my saying that melkite had professed a heresy was entirely reasonable given both his wording and hid demonstrated attitude of contempt for so called Latin theology and St Thomas.

Your continued insistence on an apology is therefore nothing but stubbornness, I suggest rather than spending your time falsely accusing others of sin you read some moral theology.

Even if a misunderstanding is reasonable, one can still apologize for it and any hurt or offense it may have caused.  It would probably be of spiritual benefit to you to apologize.

You seem to have a tendency to rely on intellect and knowledge. That is what I am like too.  In my case, this tendency leaves me in great need of  developing kindness and humility. I find that is useful for me to apologize in situations such as the one you are in now.  There is so much more to our Faith than being right in debates.  When I have forgotten that I have been very harsh and arrogant.  I encourage you to think and pray about this.  You don't want to end up like me, do you?  :)

I think it's important to remember, Christ never once commanded anyone to be right. He did command each of us to be righteous.
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(02-09-2012, 10:34 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 06:07 AM)TrentCath Wrote: Let us be clear, in order for me to have committed sin, you would have to show that my statement was unreasonable and therefore rash. You cannot do that because my saying that melkite had professed a heresy was entirely reasonable given both his wording and hid demonstrated attitude of contempt for so called Latin theology and St Thomas.

Your continued insistence on an apology is therefore nothing but stubbornness, I suggest rather than spending your time falsely accusing others of sin you read some moral theology.

Even if a misunderstanding is reasonable, one can still apologize for it and any hurt or offense it may have caused.  It would probably be of spiritual benefit to you to apologize.

You seem to have a tendency to rely on intellect and knowledge. That is what I am like too.  In my case, this tendency leaves me in great need of  developing kindness and humility. I find that is useful for me to apologize in situations such as the one you are in now.  There is so much more to our Faith than being right in debates.  When I have forgotten that I have been very harsh and arrogant.  I encourage you to think and pray about this.  You don't want to end up like me, do you?  :)

If people wish to make a mountain out of a molehill they may do so, if they think that I am going to waste my time on being involved however they are sadly mistaken.
Reply
(02-09-2012, 06:07 AM)TrentCath Wrote: Let us be clear, in order for me to have committed sin, you would have to show that my statement was unreasonable and therefore rash. You cannot do that because my saying that melkite had professed a heresy was entirely reasonable given both his wording and hid demonstrated attitude of contempt for so called Latin theology and St Thomas.

Your continued insistence on an apology is therefore nothing but stubbornness, I suggest rather than spending your time falsely accusing others of sin you read some moral theology.

It was not reasonable, in that Melkite was not saying what you thought he said, and even if he was there was no call to be a fucking asshole about it.

I won't insist on an apology.  You have made your stubborn insistence on being uncharitable and rude more than clear.
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(02-09-2012, 04:23 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 10:34 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 06:07 AM)TrentCath Wrote: Let us be clear, in order for me to have committed sin, you would have to show that my statement was unreasonable and therefore rash. You cannot do that because my saying that melkite had professed a heresy was entirely reasonable given both his wording and hid demonstrated attitude of contempt for so called Latin theology and St Thomas.

Your continued insistence on an apology is therefore nothing but stubbornness, I suggest rather than spending your time falsely accusing others of sin you read some moral theology.

Even if a misunderstanding is reasonable, one can still apologize for it and any hurt or offense it may have caused.  It would probably be of spiritual benefit to you to apologize.

You seem to have a tendency to rely on intellect and knowledge. That is what I am like too.  In my case, this tendency leaves me in great need of  developing kindness and humility. I find that is useful for me to apologize in situations such as the one you are in now.  There is so much more to our Faith than being right in debates.  When I have forgotten that I have been very harsh and arrogant.  I encourage you to think and pray about this.  You don't want to end up like me, do you?  :)

If people wish to make a mountain out of a molehill they may do so, if they think that I am going to waste my time on being involved however they are sadly mistaken.

Making a mountain out of a molehill?!?!? Physician, heal thyself.  :LOL:
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