Continued from "Wisdom Teeth"
#1
Anyone who wants to continue this topic can do so here instead of cluttering up the Oratory. :)

 
Catholicmilkman

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Dentist wanted to take my wisdom too but I know better and said no way, buddy, God knows better than you and he doesn't put teeth in my mouth for no reason. This is my belief so say all you want I'll never change my mind.

Deidre, I will pray for no further conplications for you. If I had seen this easiler I would have strongly advised you not to have them pulled.

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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
This is my belief so say all you want I'll never change my mind.


Oh brother.
 

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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
Dentist wanted to take my wisdom too but I know better and said no way, buddy, God knows better than you and he doesn't put teeth in my mouth for no reason. This is my belief so say all you want I'll never change my mind.

Deidre, I will pray for no further conplications for you. If I had seen this easiler I would have strongly advised you not to have them pulled.

To have or not to have your wisdom teeth, that is the question. If you take your logic too far then you might find yourself in company with certain sects who eschew any type of surgery. There is no need to make this such a doctrinal issue Jonathan.

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Catholicmilkman

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Quote:Originally Posted by obscurus
To have or not to have your wisdom teeth, that is the question. If you take your logic too far then you might find yourself in company with certain sects who eschew any type of surgery. There is no need to make this such a doctrinal issue Jonathan.
Truth is truth though. It's not a matter of doctrine but of knowledge and truth not concerning the faith. Surgery is not the issue.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman

Truth is truth though. It's not a matter of doctrine but of knowledge and truth not concerning the faith. Surgery is not the issue.
You know, it is true that long-term exposure to your computer screen is probably much worse for you in the long run than having impacted wisdom teeth pulled. 

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Deirdre, I'm it went well.  So far, so good with my wisdom teeth, except the fact that they haven't made me wise yet!

Milkman, I suppose if you end up with appendicitis you won't have an appendectomy?  Good luck with that.


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Quote:Originally Posted by trad_cat
Milkman, I suppose if you end up with appendicitis you won't have an appendectomy?  Good luck with that.
No, as it's a vital organ for your immune system. There are doctors who advise against it too. There are herbs you can take.

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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
Quote:Originally Posted by trad_cat
Milkman, I suppose if you end up with appendicitis you won't have an appendectomy?  Good luck with that.
No, as it's a vital organ for your immune system. There are doctors who advise against it too. There are herbs you can take.
I have to ask, milkman, with no hint of disrespect: What would you have done in my case, in which my wisdom teeth were growing into my jaw?

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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
No, as it's a vital organ for your immune system. There are doctors who advise against it too. There are herbs you can take.
[Image: laughing-smiley-018.gif]

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Catholicmilkman

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Quote:Originally Posted by tleatherland
I have to ask, milkman, with no hint of disrespect: What would you have done in my case, in which my wisdom teeth were growing into my jaw?
I have somewhat of same problem myself I just haven't had any pain so far. The problem is with physical development from conception. This may be permanent so I may be wrong and removal would be the only real option in these cases. I think it would take years for my solution to the cause of this common problem which is the narrowing of the body especially the skull and jaw by the modern processed diet (i.e. a great lack of vitamins A & D [which are really hormones], minerals, co-factors, and thousands upon thousands of unknowns found in traditional foods such as fish roe, raw dairy, eggs, etc from pastured/grass-fed livestock). Secondarily I would look for a biological dentist and get his opinion.

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Quote:Originally Posted by Sophia
Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
No, as it's a vital organ for your immune system. There are doctors who advise against it too. There are herbs you can take.
[Image: laughing-smiley-018.gif]
What is that supposed to mean? It wouldn't matter anyway, Sophia, I wouldn't have the money to anyway.

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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
Quote:Originally Posted by Sophia
Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
No, as it's a vital organ for your immune system. There are doctors who advise against it too. There are herbs you can take.
[Image: laughing-smiley-018.gif]
What is that supposed to mean? It wouldn't matter anyway, Sophia, I wouldn't have the money to anyway.

The husband of someone my mother knew was very into natural medicine and almost died seeing an herbalist for his appendicitis.  Fortunately he had it treated by conventional medicine in time.

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I firmly believe the human race is degenerating. This is a result of sin. As we degenerate, we need medical science. Maybe we take wisdom teeth out too often but there are certainly times when they need to come out. Anyone who refuses to have his appendix out if it is inflamed is being foolish.

Read Sirach 38.  



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Quote:Originally Posted by ErinIsNice
The husband of someone my mother knew was very into natural medicine and almost died seeing an herbalist for his appendicitis.  Fortunately he had it treated by conventional medicine in time.
If he didn't die then how do you know he "almost died"? Just because the herbal medicine/s he used didn't work doesn't mean that there aren't others that work or that he used them right.

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Catholicmilkman

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Quote:Originally Posted by Brennus
I firmly believe the human race is degenerating. This is a result of sin. As we degenerate, we need medical science. Maybe we take wisdom teeth out too often but there are certainly times when they need to come out. Anyone who refuses to have his appendix out if it is inflamed is being foolish.

Read Sirach 38.
I don't doubt there are times but read Sirach 38 again particularly verse 4, physicans are to be herbalists also.

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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
Quote:Originally Posted by ErinIsNice
The husband of someone my mother knew was very into natural medicine and almost died seeing an herbalist for his appendicitis. Fortunately he had it treated by conventional medicine in time.
If he didn't die then how do you know he "almost died"? Just because the herbal medicine/s he used didn't work doesn't mean that there aren't others that work or that he used them right.

He almost died because when his appendix burst the infection spread through his entire body and it took him months to recover.  And I am no fan of conventional medicine but I do see when it is necessary.

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Quote:Originally Posted by Brennus
I firmly believe the human race is degenerating. This is a result of sin. As we degenerate, we need medical science. Maybe we take wisdom teeth out too often but there are certainly times when they need to come out. Anyone who refuses to have his appendix out if it is inflamed is being foolish.

Read Sirach 38.  



Well, maybe I'm the worst person to  be taking up this argument as I never go to the doctors and am sympathetic to alternate remedies.

I was more opposed to your implication that the body always works right because God designed it. You probably didn't mean it that way.


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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
Dentist wanted to take my wisdom too but I know better and said no way, buddy, God knows better than you and he doesn't put teeth in my mouth for no reason. This is my belief so say all you want I'll never change my mind. 
Let's substitute a few words in this quote and see what we come up with. Now now, no long faces --this could be fun! [Image: wink.gif] I'll go first:

Quote:Doctor wanted to take my cancerous tumor too but I know better and said no way, buddy, God knows better than you and he doesn't put cancer in my body for no reason. This is my belief so say all you want I'll never change my mind.


*DISCLAIMER*
 
Yes, I know I sound mean, but I think a point needs to be made here.

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I have an extremely small mouth, and I had to have my wisdom teeth removed when I was only 10 years old, because they were coming up and pushing on all my good teeth.

It was hard, as it required a rather deep surgery into my jaw.  I remember it being a little difficult to recover.

I do think we all need wisdom teeth surgery, because very few of us had optimal nutrition growing up, or in the womb.  In my mother's case, she was extremely sick with diabetes while she was pregnant with me, and she was also severely malnourished as a child due to poverty.

While I agree that our Western diet is all wrong... completely wrong, and unnatural.  It's not just consumerism that ruins the diet, people have suffered from poverty, malnutrition, and disease for centuries and centuries... it's all part of the fallen world.  No reason to refuse a good doctor who can correct the malnutrition of our forefathers.

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Catholicmilkman

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Quote:Originally Posted by JLeigh
Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
Dentist wanted to take my wisdom too but I know better and said no way, buddy, God knows better than you and he doesn't put teeth in my mouth for no reason. This is my belief so say all you want I'll never change my mind. 
Let's substitute a few words in this quote and see what we come up with. Now now, no long faces --this could be fun! [Image: wink.gif] I'll go first:

Quote:Doctor wanted to take my cancerous tumor too but I know better and said no way, buddy, God knows better than you and he doesn't put cancer in my body for no reason. This is my belief so say all you want I'll never change my mind.


*DISCLAIMER*
 
Yes, I know I sound mean, but I think a point needs to be made here.
So wisdom teeth are like a cancerous tumor? Wow I didn't know that I wonder how all those centenarians lived so long with all their tee..ar..tumors I mean.

I know you weren't trying to but you sound so stupid equating cancer with teeth, it sounds too similar too those doctors who say (or used to say) pregnancy is a sickness.

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Quote:Originally Posted by miss_fluffy
I have an extremely small mouth, and I had to have my wisdom teeth removed when I was only 10 years old, because they were coming up and pushing on all my good teeth.

It was hard, as it required a rather deep surgery into my jaw.  I remember it being a little difficult to recover.

I do think we all need wisdom teeth surgery, because very few of us had optimal nutrition growing up, or in the womb.  In my mother's case, she was extremely sick with diabetes while she was pregnant with me, and she was also severely malnourished as a child due to poverty.

While I agree that our Western diet is all wrong... completely wrong, and unnatural.  It's not just consumerism that ruins the diet, people have suffered from poverty, malnutrition, and disease for centuries and centuries... it's all part of the fallen world.  No reason to refuse a good doctor who can correct the malnutrition of our forefathers.
What do you mean by all? I don't think anyone ready needs any surgery at all otherwise we would bleed when cut. Research shows that surgery leaves more problems: scar tissue, immune system suppression and weakening, etc. With wisdom teeth especially I think that enduring the pain (if you can) it is more healthy in the longrun to forego the surgery then risk infection, scar tissue, doctor mistake/malpractice, followups, etc. I'll rather let God's perfect designs (the body) handle it then man's. I might think different in a different time but we living in a time when even natural physical truths are denied/suppressed.

Sorry about my rant

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I don't deny that homeopathy can help in many cases but to posit that surgery in toto is not necessary is rather extreme. Through the use of reason man has been able to advance in medical technology which has helped many people.

Do you honestly reject surgery completely?

And what is this "research" you keep referring to?

Say you are rushed to the emergency room and the only way to save your life is through surgery, would you refuse to have surgery under the presumption that "God will fix it"?

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Catholicmilkman

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Quote:Originally Posted by obscurus
I don't deny that homeopathy can help in many cases but to posit that surgery in toto is not necessary is rather extreme. Through the use of reason man has been able to advance in medical technology which has helped many people.

Do you honestly reject surgery completely?
From the standpoint of once human perfection though not in corrects circumstances but I propose that, even now, it does not have to be necessary. I have had surgery which probably saved my live so I can't say that in present circumstances it is not necessary.

Quote:And what is this "research" you keep referring to?
Just regular followup research on post-surgery patients, with my own personal experience.

Quote:Say you are rushed to the emergency room and the only way to save your life is through surgery, would you refuse to have surgery under the presumption that "God will fix it"?
No. But I would certainly think about my opinions first if I can. If it's a trauma matter and I'm unconscious then what choice do I have? Remember also it's a matter of finances too and hospitals only have to stabilize you.


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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
Quote:Originally Posted by miss_fluffy

I do think we all need wisdom teeth surgery, because very few of us had optimal nutrition growing up, or in the womb.  In my mother's case, she was extremely sick with diabetes while she was pregnant with me, and she was also severely malnourished as a child due to poverty.
What do you mean by all?
Sorry, I meant most, not all.  Funny the difference that word makes huh?  I was posting in a hurry while babysitting my rambunctious niece.

I do think that surgery is overused in general, I've refused surgery myself against the advice of a physician, and it turned out to be a really good decision.  I just think dental issues in general, especially wisdom tooth issues, are often the first and most common problem when the diet is less than ideal.  But it wouldn't surprise me if a dentist recommends taking them out when there's no need to.

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Quote:know you weren't trying to but you sound so stupid equating cancer with teeth,

No, she didn't sound stupid. Impacted wisdom teeth can and do kill you. Last year I had to have a wisdom tooth (along with a molar) removed because it wasn't taken out sooner. The wisdom tooth started coming in, pushing aside the molar, causing it to crack which then lead to abscess. Had they taken the dang thing out when they took the others (why, I don't know) I wouldn't have lost that tooth back there. Of course I could have just told the dentist "No way buddy, God put that tooth there for a reason" then the infection could have spread to my brain... Maybe I should go to Confession for thwarting God's plan?


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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
I know you weren't trying to but you sound so stupid equating cancer with teeth, it sounds too similar too those doctors who say (or used to say) pregnancy is a sickness.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!  She's not the one who sounds stupid here.  Ever heard of blood poisoning?  It can happen when you don't remove teeth that need to be removed, or filled.  It kills you.  What a foolish way to die.

EDIT: You're obviously not very learned in the area of homeopathy.  Even homeopathic doctors praise emergency medicine since homeopathy is meant for preventive treatment. 

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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman


So wisdom teeth are like a cancerous tumor? Wow I didn't know that I wonder how all those centenarians lived so long with all their tee..ar..tumors I mean.

However do you manage to continually miss the point completely?

Quote:
I know you weren't trying to but you sound so stupid equating cancer with teeth, it sounds too similar too those doctors who say (or used to say) pregnancy is a sickness.

Alllllrighty then!

Now, let's get down to brass tacks. You're preaching to the choir regarding homeopathy -I use it if and when I can. But, let's face facts here: there will be times when only a doctor will be able to help you. Someone I know died because his tooth infection spread to his brain. By the time they realized what was happening, it was too late. My very own brother ended up having emergency brain surgery at the tender age of 12. Why? He got a cold that turned into a sinus infection. My mom happened to pat him on the head and noticed a soft spot. She took him to the doctor who took one look at my brother and said "get him to the hospital NOW!". Two hours later he was having brain surgery. If my mom had wasted time trying homeopathy instead of taking him to a doctor right away, my brother would be dead. They told my mom that he would have been dead the next day without the surgery.

So, just in case my meaning isn't clear, homeopathy has it's place, BUT it cannot replace all traditional medicine.

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Quote:Originally Posted by Spooky7272
Quote:know you weren't trying to but you sound so stupid equating cancer with teeth,

No, she didn't sound stupid. Impacted wisdom teeth can and do kill you. Last year I had to have a wisdom tooth (along with a molar) removed because it wasn't taken out sooner. The wisdom tooth started coming in, pushing aside the molar, causing it to crack which then lead to abscess. Had they taken the dang thing out when they took the others (why, I don't know) I wouldn't have lost that tooth back there. Of course I could have just told the dentist "No way buddy, God put that tooth there for a reason" then the infection could have spread to my brain... Maybe I should go to Confession for thwarting God's plan?
No but you have lost a great suffering you could have offered up for your sins and to earn merit for heaven (I'm not kidding either). My point is that the teeth aren't the problem but the development (which seems so by design) of the body's jaw.

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Quote:Originally Posted by JLeigh
Now, let's get down to brass tacks. You're preaching to the choir regarding homeopathy -I use it if and when I can. But, let's face facts here: there will be times when only a doctor will be able to help you. Someone I know died because his tooth infection spread to his brain. By the time they realized what was happening, it was too late. My very own brother ended up having emergency brain surgery at the tender age of 12. Why? He got a cold that turned into a sinus infection. My mom happened to pat him on the head and noticed a soft spot. She took him to the doctor who took one look at my brother and said "get him to the hospital NOW!". Two hours later he was having brain surgery. If my mom had wasted time trying homeopathy instead of taking him to a doctor right away, my brother would be dead. They told my mom that he would have been dead the next day without the surgery.

So, just in case my meaning isn't clear, homeopathy has it's place, BUT it cannot replace all traditional medicine.
I have nothing on what you say here but your last sentence; if you think modern "medicine" is traditional then you've got something backwards. But I don't even care much for homeopathy but alterative (some technological) medicines and cures. That's much more out there then just modern vs traditional medicines.

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Quote:Originally Posted by Catholicmilkman
Quote:Originally Posted by Spooky7272
Quote:know you weren't trying to but you sound so stupid equating cancer with teeth,

No, she didn't sound stupid. Impacted wisdom teeth can and do kill you. Last year I had to have a wisdom tooth (along with a molar) removed because it wasn't taken out sooner. The wisdom tooth started coming in, pushing aside the molar, causing it to crack which then lead to abscess. Had they taken the dang thing out when they took the others (why, I don't know) I wouldn't have lost that tooth back there. Of course I could have just told the dentist "No way buddy, God put that tooth there for a reason" then the infection could have spread to my brain... Maybe I should go to Confession for thwarting God's plan?
No but you have lost a great suffering you could have offered up for your sins and to earn merit for heaven (I'm not kidding either). My point is that the teeth aren't the problem but the development (which seems so by design) of the body's jaw.

Spooky has children who depend on her, it would be a sin for her to neglect her health so that she could offer up her suffering.  She needs to be healthy so she can be there for them, like all of us who are parents.

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Posts: 954

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[Image: paper.gif] Yesterday at 04:09 PM  [Image: mail.gif] [Image: msn.gif] [Image: announce_blue.gif] [Image: quote.gif]

Quote:
No but you have lost a great suffering you could have offered up for your sins and to earn merit for heaven (I'm not kidding either).

Do you not believe in abscesses and brain infections? Do you not realize that you're basically telling Spooky that she did the lesser thing by choosing to prevent death?

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"We are oft to blame in this, - / 'Tis too much proved - that with devotion's visage/ And pious action we do sugar o'er/ The devil himself."

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Catholicmilkman

Registered: June 26, 2006
Posts: 992

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[Image: paper.gif] Yesterday at 04:27 PM  [Image: announce_blue.gif] [Image: quote.gif]

Quote:Originally Posted by ErinIsNice
Spooky has children who depend on her, it would be a sin for her to neglect her health so that she could offer up her suffering.  She needs to be healthy so she can be there for them, like all of us who are parents.
Okay I'll concede for your reason I did not think about that.

Quote:Originally Posted by Mommie2Boys
Quote:No but you have lost a great suffering you could have offered up for your sins and to earn merit for heaven (I'm not kidding either).
Do you not believe in abscesses and brain infections? Do you not realize that you're basically telling Spooky that she did the lesser thing by choosing to prevent death?
Of course I believe in abscesses and brain infections but I do NOT believe in the way in which doctors and such "treatment" them, it's so wrong when there are good things they can do.
And no I'm not telling Spooky any such thing. As well give me the proof that what she went through prevented her death. It is impossible to prove that death was going to happen. There are many people who were told they will die in so and so time by their doctors but are alive today far longer than the doctors said.

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#3
OK, I'm glad JLeigh reopened this because I wanted to respond to this:
Quote:No but you have lost a great suffering you could have offered up for your sins and to earn merit for heaven (I'm not kidding either). My point is that the teeth aren't the problem but the development (which seems so by design) of the body's jaw.

I did suffer quite long enough thank you very much. The dentist chastised me for waiting too long as it was.

Quote:And no I'm not telling Spooky any such thing. As well give me the proof that what she went through prevented her death. It is impossible to prove that death was going to happen. There are many people who were told they will die in so and so time by their doctors but are alive today far longer than the doctors said.

So, I had to have proof I would have definitely died? Give me a freaking break. As Erin pointed out, I have kids. I cannot run a household if I'm laying in bed in excruciating pain.



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#4
I'm all for offering things up, but sorry, but we have doctors and dentists for a reason. I had my impacted wisdom teeth removed because they were growing into my jaw. Not being a dentist, I didn't actually know what was happening, all I knew was it hurt. When I was shown the radiographs, I understood why and couldn't get the damned things dug out quickly enough. As for appendicitis! A friend of mine nearly died from gangrene caused by ruptured appendix. Thank God for IV antibiotics and surgery I say [Image: thumb.gif].

Call me faithless if you like, but I can't for the life of me see that letting nature take its course is a necessarily sensible thing to do for most people. Most of us have responsibilities, if not to our children, our ageing parents, etc[Image: shrug.gif]

No one knows when anyone is going to die, only our Heavenly Father knows, all we ever get are best guesses down here, but as we are given a life, it seems rather churlish to chuck it away [Image: frown.gif].
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#5
Richeldis Wrote:No one knows when anyone is going to die, only our Heavenly Father knows, all we ever get are best guesses down here, but as we are given a life, it seems rather churlish to chuck it away [Image: frown.gif].
Who's "chuck it away" or even saying to? I was only saying I would rather first try (and advise to try first) an alterative way before surgery (and I won't even touch drugs).

After all the adage says: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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#6
Catholicmilkman Wrote:Who's "chuck it away" or even saying to? I was only saying I would rather first try (and advise to try first) an alterative way before surgery (and I won't even touch drugs).

After all the adage says: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

As I have already stated, there are going to be times in some people's lives where there is no time to try an alternative way -if you want to live that is. You say only God knows when someone will die, which is true enough. However, if your heart stops beating and the doctor says you will die unless it's starts beating again, I think we can safely assume that he knows what he's talking about. Use a little common sense here, CM. It's all well and good to have a preference for self-medication ( I do myself), but don't delude yourself into thinking that it's preferable to try self medication when clearly emergency treatment is necessary. God put doctors on earth for a reason, you know. They aren't there to decorate hospitals....
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#7
JLeigh Wrote:As I have already stated, there are going to be times in some people's lives where there is no time to try an alternative way -if you want to live that is. You say only God knows when someone will die, which is true enough. However, if your heart stops beating and the doctor says you will die unless it's starts beating again, I think we can safely assume that he knows what he's talking about. Use a little common sense here, CM. It's all well and good to have a preference for self-medication ( I do myself), but don't delude yourself into thinking that it's preferable to try self medication when clearly emergency treatment is necessary. God put doctors on earth for a reason, you know. They aren't there to decorate hospitals....
JLeigh, I think I just pretty much said the same thing on the other thread to Alex if you didn't catch it. But that's all beside the point I'm not telling about knowledge here I'm talking about solutions and there are natural solutions (that have worked) on heart failure. God is not stupid and put certain herbs (like hot peppers) here for just such occasions. Cultures have used such universally before. I just think the consequences of Modernism on the world is an extreme lack of knowledge of even the natural sciences. The recent thread on geocentrism vs heliocentrism is a good example. 
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#8
Catholicmilkman Wrote:JLeigh, I think I just pretty much said the same thing on the other thread to Alex if you didn't catch it. But that's all beside the point I'm not telling about knowledge here I'm talking about solutions and there are natural solutions (that have worked) on heart failure. God is not stupid and put certain herbs (like hot peppers) here for just such occasions. Cultures have used such universally before. I just think the consequences of Modernism on the world is an extreme lack of knowledge of even the natural sciences. The recent thread on geocentrism vs heliocentrism is a good example.

Yes, there are plenty of natural cures out there.  However, there is not one herb that will suddenly make one's wisdom teeth stop growing in the wrong direction.  Unless you want them to damage all of your other teeth, they have to be removed.

Also, you have to accept the fact that there comes a point when you stop the natural treatment and go for conventional treatment.
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#9
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#10
TradCatholicGal, I don't know what your understanding of "unnatural" is but I don't believe it was God's original design to have to pull out some of our teeth. Now with that said I do believe that having to pull them now with all the pain they cause before and after they're pulled is a direct consequence of the sin of adulterating our food (think pateurization, homogenization, white flour, white sugar, feedlots, GMO's). Either way I believe even now we shouldn't (and for future generations don't) have to.
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